Gun control

[Freakshow]

I thought I did, but no, probably not.

Well, at least you admit it.

 

[CFLarsen]

No, you need to have actually had some exerience with shooting with a parent to state whether or not it is a good experience for parents and children to share. You are speaking from ignorance. Because YOU don't like guns, you think it is not a good experience for parents and kids to go shooting together. But you don't know what you are talking about, do you?

Have you ever been any other race than your own?

Have you ever been addicted to heroin?

Have you ever been on death row?

Have you ever committed suicide?

Have you ever talked to dead people?

No to all of these?

Then you can't speak out on racial issues, drug issues, penal issues, psychological issues, or paranormal issues.

Right?

 

[bob_kark]

I totally disagree with your last premise (what alternative weapon is a criminal using a gun going to otherwise use? A knife? A tire iron? In most cases that's hardly realistic) and might "tweak" some of your other ideas, but generally an excellent post.

So, you think that in a domestic disturbance, it is unlikely that a knife, tire iron, golf club, etc would be used if a gun were unavailable? Do you believe that a disgruntled worker would be unlikely to use a home made pipe bomb if a gun were unavailable to exact his revenge?

It is handguns (and ridiculous things like uzis, etc) we need to focus on and tighten up on a GREAT deal IMO. Let hunters keep the rifles and such, negating that argument. Anyone saying "criminals could still use those" is technically correct, but it would still cut down on crimes/deaths/etc a lot, as they are not exactly easily concealed or as easy to just grab and bang away with.

Do you really see this as a realistic option? I would welcome a ban on handguns myself, but I don't see it happening within our lifetime. I'm simply suggesting a reasonable alternative.

Perfect solution? Hardly. But there is no such thing.

What drives me nuts are the reasons staunch anti-handgun control people use, like the my-Constitutional-right bit, or some absurd paranoia about the military taking over the country etc. Yeah right. Just admit you're into guns and the power trip that goes with it, and so want the right to own em whether you have a good reason or not. yeesh

Not every anti-handgun control person is a wacko or is on some power trip. Some people really are concerned about their family's safety. I don't see that as being unreasonable. Other people simply are not willing to give up any constitutional rights as a matter of principle.

 

[Freakshow]

Not every anti-handgun control person is a wacko or is on some power trip. Some people really are concerned about their family's safety. I don't see that as being unreasonable. Other people simply are not willing to give up any constitutional rights as a matter of principle.

And some of us recognize that the handgun is by far the most effective means of defending yourself. There is not even a close 2nd. This assumes of course that the person knows what they are doing. Which would be the same assumption you have to make when evaluating the differences between any methods of self defense.

 

[ImaginalDisc]

And some of us recognize that the handgun is by far the most effective means of defending yourself. There is not even a close 2nd. This assumes of course that the person knows what they are doing. Which would be the same assumption you have to make when evaluating the differences between any methods of self defense.

By the same token, a handgun is the most effective means for robbing, killing and terrorizing another person. Maybe having a bunch of easily concealed deadly weapons around isn't such a good idea.

 

[Freakshow]

By the same token, a handgun is the most effective means for robbing, killing and terrorizing another person. Maybe having a bunch of easily concealed deadly weapons around isn't such a good idea.

Unless you think that people can get guns illegally, the same way they now get drugs illegally. If we can't stop people from getting drugs, we won't be able to stop them from getting guns. I'd prefer to even the odds for myself.

 

[bigred]

So, you think that in a domestic disturbance, it is unlikely that a knife, tire iron, golf club, etc would be used if a gun were unavailable? Do you believe that a disgruntled worker would be unlikely to use a home made pipe bomb if a gun were unavailable to exact his revenge?.

More often than not, of course. The power/ease of use, esp. over distance/etc of a gun is not exactly a small factor in its popularity for crimes.

Do you really see this as a realistic option? I would welcome a ban on handguns myself, but I don't see it happening within our lifetime. I'm simply suggesting a reasonable alternative.

Unfortunately, no. Course hundreds of years ago they didn't think elimination of slavery was a realistic option either, so I can hope....

Not every anti-handgun control person is a wacko or is on some power trip.

Of course not. Didn't mean to imply that, pardon if the choice of words was lacking. I would say it's a good rule of thumb though.

I don't see that as being unreasonable. Other people simply are not willing to give up any constitutional rights as a matter of principle.

oh cmon......even if we agree that it is in fact a constitutional right, I think EXTREMELY few people hang onto any such right as a "matter of principle." They're thinking of the real-world benefit to themselves.

 

[Amapola]

I'm just curious if there's anyone out here who isn't either a serious left-wing anti-gun person or serious right-wing pro-gun person.

This is interesting to me. Why do people who are pro-gun have to be serious right-wingers? I remember reading something by David Brooks (in The Atlantic magazine) where he says something like people who live in "blue" states (I think he means Democrats) "..... don't know how to shoot or clean a rifle...." so apparently David Brooks thinks only right-wingers would be pro-gun, too. This has not been my life experience at all. I grew up in a family that would now be called "liberals", amongst many other people who were "liberals" and we all had guns. In fact I now own 3. No assault rifles or Saturday Night Specials though...... You would be able to describe all my neighbors as "liberals" (the vast majority in my county are registered Democrats, according to the nice ladies that run our voting booths) and nearly every one of them has a gun....... they even have gun racks in their trucks and take the guns with them everywhere they go. I don't think a day goes by when I do not hear a gun going off..... So I am bewildered about this idea that only Republicans like guns, and that all Democrats are opposed to them.

Keep in mind I live way out in the country on a farm, but even so. Is it so different in the rest of the country? Surely there are people who could be described as "left-wingers" who have and are for guns.

 

[ImaginalDisc]

Unless you think that people can get guns illegally, the same way they now get drugs illegally. If we can't stop people from getting drugs, we won't be able to stop them from getting guns. I'd prefer to even the odds for myself.

Odds always favor an agressor. For one thing, you don't have eyes in the back of your head. I'd rather run the risk of getting mugged than have a society full of armed individuals, who occasionally get drunk or angry, and shoot other people. Handguns aren't as effective at preventingcrime as they are in causing crimes of passion to escalate from fisticuffs to murder.

Ultimately, the reasons I hear to keep handguns legal are the same reasons I hear to make pot legal, "because I want some".

 

[Freakshow]

Odds always favor an agressor.

Where is your evidence of this? I have a degree in Law Enforcement, used to be a martial arts instructor, have spent a lot of time studying defensive tactics, and have been shooting guns all my life. Things are not always in favor of the agressor.

I'd rather run the risk of getting mugged than have a society full of armed individuals, who occasionally get drunk or angry, and shoot other people.

Well, that's your choice. You are free to go out and get mugged. But don't force me to live your choices.

Handguns aren't as effective at preventingcrime as they are in causing crimes of passion to escalate from fisticuffs to murder.

Evidence?

Ultimately, the reasons I hear to keep handguns legal are the same reasons I hear to make pot legal, "because I want some".

Generalization. How about some evidence for that?

 

[bigred]

This is interesting to me. Why do people who are pro-gun have to be serious right-wingers?

Is it so different in the rest of the country?

Pretty much, from what I see/hear.

But that was exactly my point, ie the mindless "polarization" of our country. More and more it seems people swing to one extreme or the other with precious little regard for what makes sense from an objective analysis standpoint, but a great deal of regard for how their viewpoints define them from a social status/group standpoint.

 

[Kerberos]

I'm just curious if there's anyone out here who isn't either a serious left-wing anti-gun person or serious right-wing pro-gun person.

That certainly soesn't apply to me, I'm not serious about anything.

 

[bigred]

Odds always favor an agressor. For one thing, you don't have eyes in the back of your head. I'd rather run the risk of getting mugged than have a society full of armed individuals, who occasionally get drunk or angry, and shoot other people. Handguns aren't as effective at preventingcrime as they are in causing crimes of passion to escalate from fisticuffs to murder.

ie:

You're more likely to get shot by an idiot than a criminal.

Bingo.

 

[Kerberos]

Unless you think that people can get guns illegally, the same way they now get drugs illegally. If we can't stop people from getting drugs, we won't be able to stop them from getting guns. I'd prefer to even the odds for myself.

I guess that must be why Denmark is flooded with guns.

 

[bigred]

That certainly soesn't apply to me, I'm not serious about anything.

Might as well cuz you're not funny about anything either.

 

[Freakshow]

I guess that must be why Denmark is flooded with guns.

Different countries, different legal systems, different cultures.

 

[Freakshow]

ie:

You're more likely to get shot by an idiot than a criminal.

Bingo.

Where are you statistics on this? And are you considering the deterrent effect on criminals when evaluating them?

 

[Kerberos]

Different countries, different legal systems, different cultures.

Not relevant, it shots a hole in your argument by anology. If the inability to control drugs meant that you couldn't control guns, then Denmark would have far more gun crimes than we have. It might not be possible to prevent criminals from getting guns, but that cannot be concluded from lack of succes in fighting drugs.

 

[bigred]

Unless you think that people can get guns illegally, the same way they now get drugs illegally. If we can't stop people from getting drugs, we won't be able to stop them from getting guns.

I see - so since it's not a perfect solution, why bother eh?

Based on that logic, why have anything be illegal? After all, making things illegal doesn't stop them from being obtained, as you pointed out.

So let's legalize all drugs. Let's legalize anyone having any flammable, explosive, or radioactive material of any kind, since making them illegal doesn't completely stop their use/trafficking. pf - why stop there? Let's legalize owning bombs and bazookas and cool stuff like that too!

Sorry, don't think that's the answer.

 

[Freakshow]

Not relevant, it shots a hole in your argument by anology. If the inability to control drugs meant that you couldn't control guns, then Denmark would have far more gun crimes than we have. It might not be possible to prevent criminals from getting guns, but that cannot be concluded from lack of succes in fighting drugs.

There are significant differences in the cultures in terms of guns, violence, gang activity, etc. Does Denmark have as many gangbangers as the US does? I'm not putting it all on gangs. Just using it as an example.