The supernatural

[IanS]

Exactly. Modern scientific equipment and technology have advanced greatly. And it makes me proud.

Why does it make you "proud"? When people use that word "proud" it typically refers to something they themselves have done ... which scientific discoveries or work in science research are you responsible for?

More accurate for any of us to say that we are grateful to all those who have worked in science to achieve so much, that is so beneficial to everyone on the planet today. That achievement is truly astonishing.

But it is also an achievement that has found no evidence or any support whatsoever for belief in God or any old books and old preachers that claim themselves to be "holy".

On the contrary - every time there has ever been independent scientific study of these holy men, their holy books, and their miracle claims ... the whole lot has always turned out to be completely false and untrue.

The scientific aspects of the Qur'an are not yet fully understood. And much of it is unknown to humanity.

There are no "scientific aspects of the Koran"! Just as there are no "scientific aspects" of the Christian bibles (OT and NT), or any other ancient religious books. What you are falsely calling "scientific aspects of the Koran", are simple innocuous sentences that say nothing at all about any modern science, but which all sorts of self-proclaimed "holy scholars" of Islam claim to have "interpreted" to mean all sorts of things that none of the actual words ever said at all. And by the way ; religious claims like that, which you are so besotted with & so consumed by that you have filled almost every page here repeating the stuff, i.e. the I'Jaz literature, are very definitely fundamentalist beliefs.

Everything you know and we know in Islam exists in the universe.

What is a sentence like that supposed to mean? Literally you are merely saying that what is talked about in the Koran as things people at the time could see for themselves (trees, animals, storms, sunny days etc.), does actually exist in nature ... well, we all know that the sun exists, that trees, mountains, the moon and stars and people exist ... so what is the point of saying that the Koran talks of those things? ...

... what the Koran DOES NOT talk about of course, are things like black holes, dark matter, neutron stars, evolution, quantum theory etc. etc. ... not a single word of any of that is ever mentioned in the Koran ... but you so much wish that it was mentioned, that you have resorted to all the I'Jaz nonsense of claiming that it is mentioned because somewhere a sentence says there is a Moon, Sun and Stars in "the sky" ... well, 4000 years before any Koran was ever written, the Egyptians and the Chinese already recognised that the Moon, Sun and Stars exist!

But he moves at the command of a commander in the name of God. The only thing that is unknown is the nature and attributes of God. Everything else in the universe interacts. We worship that one being in the name of God.

Who “moves at the command of God”? And where did you prove any such thing? Please produce your proof showing that any God certainly exists to move anything?

The nature and attributes of your God are all very well known … because 1500 years before the Koran, those attributes and descriptions were already all invented by believers of the Jewish faith in the region that is now around Israel & Palestine! That is all described in the Old and New Testaments of the Christian/Jewish bibles … they are filled with all manner of claims about “the nature and attributes” of the same God that you believe in! …. filled with all of that 1000 years before your Koran!

 

[Tassman]

In the Quran there is a verse in which God speaks in the first person, and says " I created Jinn and humankind only that they might worship me"

Quran surah 51.56

I call that pathetic.

I totally agree.

 

[Gord_in_Toronto]

I totally agree.

Not to mention nonsensical, foolish, insane, stupid, lunatic, idiotic, illogical, irrational, zany, senseless, absurd, silly, inane, asinine, harebrained, ridiculous, ludicrous, wild, preposterous, fatuous, crazy, crackpot, crackbrained, nutty, wacky, and daft.

 

[Tassman]

Not to mention nonsensical, foolish, insane, stupid, lunatic, idiotic, illogical, irrational, zany, senseless, absurd, silly, inane, asinine, harebrained, ridiculous, ludicrous, wild, preposterous, fatuous, crazy, crackpot, crackbrained, nutty, wacky, and daft.

And that too.

 

[Tassman]

Exactly. Modern scientific equipment and technology have advanced greatly. And it makes me proud. The scientific aspects of the Qur'an are not yet fully understood. And much of it is unknown to humanity.

There is no reason for you to feel “proud”. This has NOTHING to do with Islam; the scientific method didn’t exist when the great religions were formulated. The Scientific Revolution didn’t develop until the 16th century, towards the end of the European Renaissance.

Everything you know and we know in Islam exists in the universe. But he moves at the command of a commander in the name of God. The only thing that is unknown is the nature and attributes of God. Everything else in the universe interacts.

The alleged divine attributes are unsubstantiated by ANY verifiable evidence.

We worship that one being in the name of God.

Why does your deity demand to be “worshipped”?

 

[Lukraak_Sisser]

Hi. The author of the Quran is one. It is God. He has said everything. Of course, only Kelly said. He left the details for us humans. To discover. And find its science. And the subject you are raising was not known to any human being in the time of Muhammad. Therefore, there is no objection to the Qur'an and its author. I remind you that; Remember Ramadan every year.
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That is a VERY easy cop-out. The Ramadan is a fundamental part of Islam.
A truly all-knowing god could have easily introduced a passage to explain how to deal with the problems of observing it outside of the Middle East.

 

[IanS]

edit ... not actually a post

 

[Chanakya]

edit ... not actually a post

Nor a poll. Nor even a discussion really. This entire thread I mean.

Had it not been clearly against the MA, I'd have liked to have started a thread to discuss what to me is the actually relevant takeaway from this thread, which would be the exact mechanism of the corruption in the thinking process that religiosity induces, and that we see in such stark and somewhat surreal display here. I still might, one of these days, except I suppose we'd have to discuss it in purely impersonal abstract terms.

I find it truly fascinating, how OP keeps skirting every argument that punctures their bubble, and desperately keeps clutching at straws to somehow keep up the illusion of not harboring utterly irrational beliefs. An analysis of the what goes on inside the head of someone like that --- who is not overtly deliberately dishonest, as far as I can tell, and whose undeniable disingenuity seems like an inadvertent defense mechanism put up by their mind to somehow escape from the cognitive dissonance that would otherwise destroy their religious beliefs --- would make for a very interesting and perhaps instructive discussion.

 

[Chanakya]

... I stand like a mountain. And I will not give up at all ...

Clearly you see this "stand(ing) like a moutain" thing as some kind of an honorable attribute, something admirable, but what it is is actually you holding on to your beliefs in the face of reason, in the face of evidence, in the face of logic.

If you could only reread all of this thread with some semblance of a disinterested POV, then you'd be fascinated --- and horrified --- to see how you desperately keep on directly avoiding every argument that punctures your irrationality, how you brazenly keep on misrepresenting every argument that you can into some form that is very different than what was said and in which you try to somehow find some support for your own superstitions.

I'm saying this because it appears to me that you're not being deliberately dishonest, that you've not set out to deliberately troll us. Yet your brainwashing simply does not let you see what is in very clear view right in front of your eyes.

Just try rereading this thread from the beginning. Who knows, something might click, just perhaps?

 

[Gord_in_Toronto]

Clearly you see this "stand(ing) like a moutain" thing as some kind of an honorable attribute, something admirable, but what it is is actually you holding on to your beliefs in the face of reason, in the face of evidence, in the face of logic.

If you could only reread all of this thread with some semblance of a disinterested POV, then you'd be fascinated --- and horrified --- to see how you desperately keep on directly avoiding every argument that punctures your irrationality, how you brazenly keep on misrepresenting every argument that you can into some form that is very different than what was said and in which you try to somehow find some support for your own superstitions.

I'm saying this because it appears to me that you're not being deliberately dishonest, that you've not set out to deliberately troll us. Yet your brainwashing simply does not let you see what is in very clear view right in front of your eyes.

Just try rereading this thread from the beginning. Who knows, something might click, just perhaps?

Just possibly I would prefer to burn in Hell for eternity.

 

[Chanakya]

Just possibly I would prefer to burn in Hell for eternity.

Heh, yes, you're right, just because someone's religious doesn't mean one should push them to that kind of torture!

 

[IanS]

Nor a poll. Nor even a discussion really. This entire thread I mean.

Had it not been clearly against the MA, I'd have liked to have started a thread to discuss what to me is the actually relevant takeaway from this thread, which would be the exact mechanism of the corruption in the thinking process that religiosity induces, and that we see in such stark and somewhat surreal display here. I still might, one of these days, except I suppose we'd have to discuss it in purely impersonal abstract terms.

I find it truly fascinating, how OP keeps skirting every argument that punctures their bubble, and desperately keeps clutching at straws to somehow keep up the illusion of not harboring utterly irrational beliefs. An analysis of the what goes on inside the head of someone like that --- who is not overtly deliberately dishonest, as far as I can tell, and whose undeniable disingenuity seems like an inadvertent defense mechanism put up by their mind to somehow escape from the cognitive dissonance that would otherwise destroy their religious beliefs --- would make for a very interesting and perhaps instructive discussion.

Clearly you see this "stand(ing) like a moutain" thing as some kind of an honorable attribute, something admirable, but what it is is actually you holding on to your beliefs in the face of reason, in the face of evidence, in the face of logic.

If you could only reread all of this thread with some semblance of a disinterested POV, then you'd be fascinated --- and horrified --- to see how you desperately keep on directly avoiding every argument that punctures your irrationality, how you brazenly keep on misrepresenting every argument that you can into some form that is very different than what was said and in which you try to somehow find some support for your own superstitions.

I'm saying this because it appears to me that you're not being deliberately dishonest, that you've not set out to deliberately troll us. Yet your brainwashing simply does not let you see what is in very clear view right in front of your eyes.

Just try rereading this thread from the beginning. Who knows, something might click, just perhaps?

I don't think heydarian is particularly unusual in what he is saying here and the way he responds. I think we'd find that almost all Christians and Muslims, where they are highly committed to their faith, talk, act and reason in much the same way.

That's the result of truly and completely believing in the existence of their God and the inerrancy of their holy books … they believe it completely and utterly, with no room for any doubt at all. So to them it's obvious that their book simply has to be 100% correct, and simply has to be the word of God … anything else is impossible.

You hear the exact same arguments and the exact same approach from Christians on the ACA YouTube programs like Atheist experience, Truth Wanted, Talk Heathen.

 

[Pixel42]

It's surely the result of early indoctrination. Teach children beliefs as if they were facts from birth, and you can put their minds into a mental straitjacket from which most will never escape.

 

[Scorpion]

It's surely the result of early indoctrination. Teach children beliefs as if they were facts from birth, and you can put their minds into a mental straitjacket from which most will never escape.

Heydarian says he has studied the Quran since he was five.

 

[Susheel]

Heydarian says he has studied the Quran since he was five.

Which isn't such a big deal, as it is the standard practice in the households of all practicing Muslims.

 

[abaddon]

Which isn't such a big deal, as it is the standard practice in the households of all practicing Muslims.

Yeah. I studied the bible since I was five. It's why I am an atheist. Because it's bollocks. In later life I read the quran, and that's utter bollocks. We could go on, but what would be the point of that? All the magic books are bollocks, every single one.

One of the things I found interesting in my reading was the Silmarilion. It shows how a writer can simply invent a fictional deific universe. Out of whole cloth. How is the wholy babble any different?

 

[Lothian]

It's surely the result of early indoctrination. Teach children beliefs as if they were facts from birth, and you can put their minds into a mental straitjacket from which most will never escape.

Heydarian and other believers must consider it incredibly lucky that they were each born into the right religion. How unfortunate it would have been to been born into a Buddhist family?

While he may claim that in that scenario he would have found Islam and that Islam is still the one true religion I suspect it is more likely that he would be here talking about the scientific truth of reincarnation.

 

[Chanakya]

I don't think heydarian is particularly unusual in what he is saying here and the way he responds. I think we'd find that almost all Christians and Muslims, where they are highly committed to their faith, talk, act and reason in much the same way.

That's the result of truly and completely believing in the existence of their God and the inerrancy of their holy books … they believe it completely and utterly, with no room for any doubt at all. So to them it's obvious that their book simply has to be 100% correct, and simply has to be the word of God … anything else is impossible.

You hear the exact same arguments and the exact same approach from Christians on the ACA YouTube programs like Atheist experience, Truth Wanted, Talk Heathen.

No no, I'm not suggesting his closed-mindedness is at all unusual. It's just that it is so clearly starkly on display here.

In fact the perversion of his faculties and of his thinking, that is interesting precisely because it is so representative, broadly speaking, of so many religious folks. Working out the exact hows and wherefores of that perversion would help shed (more) light on that exact kind of perversion that we see all around us, but that we do not actually have the opportunity to examine in detail like this.

It's fascinating, actually. Reading OP's comments, it is clear that he looks on us as just as irrational and just as pigheaded as we find him. How, I wonder, might one break through and actually open the eyes of someone who keeps their eyes shut tightly as hard as they can like that?

One's interest in OP is genuine but only very casual and limited after all. It is that generalization, that extrapolation on to other more meaningful interactions IRL --- if only we could derive anything meaningful to generalize and to extrapolate, which we haven't so far! --- that is what is, or can be, of wider interest.

 

[Chanakya]

It's surely the result of early indoctrination. Teach children beliefs as if they were facts from birth, and you can put their minds into a mental straitjacket from which most will never escape.

I've thought, more than once, that we should make it illegal for parents to offload their toxic and unevidenced belief systems on to their poor helpless children. But of course that's just wishful thinking, it's like a chicken and egg thing, the parents who'd agree to that kind of a legal arrangement are precisely the kind of parents who'd never perpetrate that kind of (mental) violence on their children in the first place, so ...

 

[LongFuzzy]

When my son was growing up, I made a point of never speaking of God or religion. In any way, good or bad. The subject never came up until he was around 10, maybe a bit younger, its was quite a few years ago. At that point he understand that religion was bunk.