The supernatural

[MarkCorrigan]

Heydarian, why are you refusing to deal with the poeple who have pointed out that your arguments are not logical and correct, but are in fact logical fallacies writ large? Why do you simply insult and dismiss them? I'm sure a logical, polite person such as yourself knows that the way to convince people is to point out why their counter arguments are wrong and not just tell them they are wrong, right?

I mean let's say that you post your "proofs" and I just reply with "That's not logical." I assume you would not be convinced that I was correct, right? Well that's all you're doing.

Well Heydarian?

 

[Cosmic Yak]

Well Heydarian?

I think this thread is more about heydarian making heydarian feel good about his blind faith than anything else.
Frankly, I'm surprised anyone else is still bothering to try. Let him post his copy-and-paste screeds by himself. I see little point in engaging with someone who is clearly completely uninterested in genuine debate or conversation.

 

[IanS]

I think this thread is more about heydarian making heydarian feel good about his blind faith than anything else.
Frankly, I'm surprised anyone else is still bothering to try. Let him post his copy-and-paste screeds by himself. I see little point in engaging with someone who is clearly completely uninterested in genuine debate or conversation.

True, there does seem to be little point continuing with, what are after all effectively the same posts every time from heydarian (it's really never got past just waving a holy book at us), and all the same replies from the rest of us ... how long should anyone bother with a conversation like that (rhetorical, so no ? needed).

On the other hand, heydarain is not alone amongst devout religious people arguing endlessly in the way that he does. Islamic people seem to do that all the time ... theres's a complete refusal ever to truthfully examine their own beliefs. But it happens a lot with Christians too, as anyone who's ever watched more than a handful of the YouTube Atheist Experience shows will know only too well (the so-called pre-suppositioanlist callers in particular) ...

... but maybe that is a reason to continue replying to heydarain, because otherwise the most extreme fundamentalists are never seriously opposed, and they just carry with their extreme beliefs ... and eventually beliefs like that do end up with real harm to other people.

 

[Gord_in_Toronto]

True, there does seem to be little point continuing with, what are after all effectively the same posts every time from heydarian (it's really never got past just waving a holy book at us), and all the same replies from the rest of us ... how long should anyone bother with a conversation like that (rhetorical, so no ? needed).

On the other hand, heydarain is not alone amongst devout religious people arguing endlessly in the way that he does. Islamic people seem to do that all the time ... theres's a complete refusal ever to truthfully examine their own beliefs. But it happens a lot with Christians too, as anyone who's ever watched more than a handful of the YouTube Atheist Experience shows will know only too well (the so-called pre-suppositioanlist callers in particular) ...

... but maybe that is a reason to continue replying to heydarain, because otherwise the most extreme fundamentalists are never seriously opposed, and they just carry with their extreme beliefs ... and eventually beliefs like that do end up with real harm to other people.

Not to strongly disagree with what you have said but people do change their minds. Maybe via a sudden "ah ha" moment or maybe slowly as dripping water wears away the stone. It might be claimed that those who protest most loudly are those who are internally most insecure in their beliefs. In any case on the Internet you must always "think of the lurkers".

 

[Cosmic Yak]

Not to strongly disagree with what you have said but people do change their minds. Maybe via a sudden "ah ha" moment or maybe slowly as dripping water wears away the stone. It might be claimed that those who protest most loudly are those who are internally most insecure in their beliefs. In any case on the Internet you must always "think of the lurkers".

If we were dealing with factual claims, like vaccines or 9/11 conspiracy theories, I would agree that there was a point to continuing to address such claims and refute them. This may well help sway some of the lurkers, and also prevents the loony-tunes crew owning the internet.
However, in the case of religious fundamentalism, this is faith-based. Logic and facts have no place in this kind of conversation. It really is about who shouts for their own particular god the loudest. No amount of reason or logic will dent heydarian's belief in his magic book, nor would similar arguments sway other religious fanatics. Scorpion, for example, will not abandon his belief in mediums because of anything heydarian says. I also doubt that any non-believers are going to be persuaded by the kind of unoriginal, inept and closed-minded preaching exhibited by the heydarians of this world, and, if they were, no amount of fact-based argument would rescue them.
Let them shout away, and let them be. Challenging them is what they want- it's the old adage about wrestling with pigs. (To use a singularly unapt metaphor in relation to Islam! ) Don't give them the attention they want, and then they can be as fervent as they like as they fade into irrelevance.

 

[IanS]

Not to strongly disagree with what you have said but people do change their minds. Maybe via a sudden "ah ha" moment or maybe slowly as dripping water wears away the stone. It might be claimed that those who protest most loudly are those who are internally most insecure in their beliefs. In any case on the Internet you must always "think of the lurkers".

I agree. And I think it's fairly obvious that, that is also what I was saying. That is - I think it's always worth persisting, because people do sometimes change their minds ... even if it takes decades ... and even if it takes some personal tragedy or other major event in their lives.

If we were dealing with factual claims, like vaccines or 9/11 conspiracy theories, I would agree that there was a point to continuing to address such claims and refute them. This may well help sway some of the lurkers, and also prevents the loony-tunes crew owning the internet.
However, in the case of religious fundamentalism, this is faith-based. Logic and facts have no place in this kind of conversation. It really is about who shouts for their own particular god the loudest. No amount of reason or logic will dent heydarian's belief in his magic book, nor would similar arguments sway other religious fanatics. Scorpion, for example, will not abandon his belief in mediums because of anything heydarian says. I also doubt that any non-believers are going to be persuaded by the kind of unoriginal, inept and closed-minded preaching exhibited by the heydarians of this world, and, if they were, no amount of fact-based argument would rescue them.
Let them shout away, and let them be. Challenging them is what they want- it's the old adage about wrestling with pigs. (To use a singularly unapt metaphor in relation to Islam! ) Don't give them the attention they want, and then they can be as fervent as they like as they fade into irrelevance.

Obviously, at any one moment in time it can see like an impossible task to change the minds of religious fundamentalists (are all religious believers actually "fundamentalists" is some sense?). But if we are looking at the much longer time span, as I think we probably need to do, then I think it's obvious and true that minds can be changed (and changed for the better).

What I hope happens here, in this thread, is that heydarian eventualy goes away with a few more things to think about (things that he would not otherwise have given so much thought too). And the hope is that for heydarian and/or others like him, he eventually realises that all religious belief is so seriously incompatible with modern educational standards (especially from science education … evolution is the very obvious example), that he arrives at a stage where he simply cannot honestly believe those things any more.

At any rate, I think it's always worth giving people the benefit of the doubt, and at least trying.

 

[Lukraak_Sisser]

I find it interesting how discussions about how the Quran supposedly predicts science ignores the fact that an all knowing god forgot to tell his followers about seasonal length of days.

Have Ramadan at the wrong time of year in the north (or south) and you either starve or can eat all day.

 

[Cosmic Yak]

Obviously, at any one moment in time it can see like an impossible task to change the minds of religious fundamentalists (are all religious believers actually "fundamentalists" is some sense?). But if we are looking at the much longer time span, as I think we probably need to do, then I think it's obvious and true that minds can be changed (and changed for the better).

What I hope happens here, in this thread, is that heydarian eventualy goes away with a few more things to think about (things that he would not otherwise have given so much thought too). And the hope is that for heydarian and/or others like him, he eventually realises that all religious belief is so seriously incompatible with modern educational standards (especially from science education … evolution is the very obvious example), that he arrives at a stage where he simply cannot honestly believe those things any more.

At any rate, I think it's always worth giving people the benefit of the doubt, and at least trying.

I gave heydarian the benefit of the doubt, until it became clear that he was not going to engage in an honest conversation, and not going to listen to anyone else. The pages of further debate that have followed my decision have not led me to reconsider the worth of engaging directly with him.
In terms of the wider picture, heydarian is Iranian. Contrary to the depiction in western media, Iran is not actually a hotbed of Islamic fundamentalism. I have visited that country, and was very pleasantly surprised at how educated and sophisticated many Iranians were. Heydarian has developed and maintained his fundamentalist beliefs in a society that is not, in actual fact, that religiously observant. The mosques are largely empty, and the crowds of chanting, black-clad women you see on the news are bussed in from the villages, and transported back once that particular anti-western demonstration is over. The levels of scientific and worldly knowledge I witnessed there were, in many respects, higher than in many other countries, particularly America. Islam is also tainted by its close association with the much-hated repressive theocracy that rules Iran and has caused so many problems for its people.
If heydarian can continue to insist on the veracity of his unfounded, illogical and often contradictory beliefs, whilst having plentiful access to more enlightened mindsets in his own country, I seriously doubt that his conversations here will give him any pause for thought.

 

[heydarian saeed]

You are not talking to an atheist when you talk to me, I have had a lot of psychic experience, and many messages from my dead relatives. I know what happens after death. We go to the spirit world, and to a plane of experience that the evolution of our soul equips us for. For unevolved souls that have done evil, they will go to the dark regions, until such time as they repent and seek progression. But they will not burn in any kind of hellfire. Good souls go to brighter realms and remain there until they realize they cannot spiritually evolve any higher without more experience so they choose to reincarnate again.

Let me tell you what the spirits say:

There is no Satan, there is no hellfire, there will be no judgement day. We will evolve over thousands of incarnations, on this and other planets.

Eventually we will complete our cycle of incarnations and achieve a state of grace, after which we will remain in the spirit world as immortal beings.

We are all one great spiritual family of souls, and we are the immortal children of God.

Following the message of messages 1666 and 1667, I investigated the cause of the torment of the servants. Your article in message 1655 shows that you know the cause of the torment of the servants and its nature. But you know the anti-mercy of God. And you believe that God should not punish anyone. You also believe that spirits go to the middle world (purgatory) after death..
And stay there for a while. Then they return to the world in the form of another body. And this sweep occurs many times for ghosts. Until the spirits are cleansed. And evolve. And prepare the beautiful world of heaven. And all will live in paradise forever. In fact, all spirits come from one soul. That is the spirit of God. And they do not deserve to be tormented. Is my view of your theory correct? If I do not understand correctly. Explain to me. And guide me. I want to draw the right conclusion from this.

 

[Tassman]

Following the message of messages 1666 and 1667, I investigated the cause of the torment of the servants. Your article in message 1655 shows that you know the cause of the torment of the servants and its nature. But you know the anti-mercy of God. And you believe that God should not punish anyone. You also believe that spirits go to the middle world (purgatory) after death..
And stay there for a while. Then they return to the world in the form of another body. And this sweep occurs many times for ghosts. Until the spirits are cleansed. And evolve. And prepare the beautiful world of heaven. And all will live in paradise forever. In fact, all spirits come from one soul. That is the spirit of God. And they do not deserve to be tormented. Is my view of your theory correct? If I do not understand correctly. Explain to me. And guide me. I want to draw the right conclusion from this.

What you are presenting as God is NOT a transcendent, all-wise spiritual being. Rather you are equating your deity with a stern father-figure, more human than divine. Indeed, a God very much made in man’s image which, of course, is exactly what God is. Merely a man writ large.

 

[heydarian saeed]

In the above post (which was a reply to Chanakya), you say we are not being logical or rational and that we have no evidence to oppose your belief in God and the Koran. But what we have been doing is quoting to you and explaining actual published science … in fact we are in effect quoting ALL of published science from the modern science era of the last 150 years. You are in fact claiming that the results of science are all illiogical, irrational and without evidence when it comes to claims of God, miracles and the supernatural.

I have pointed out to you many times now, that amongst all the many millions of science papers published in fundamental core science (that means physics, chemistry, biology and most of advanced maths), no evidence has ever been found for any trace of God or any supernatural miracles. So far, those areas of science have investigated every conceivable question ever raised by anyone for anything & everything in the entire universe, and not a single shred of any trace of any God or any miracle has ever been found.

For example – at the time when your Koran was written, and in fact since long before that when the Old & New Testaments of the Bible were written, everyone believed, and indeed claimed as a certainty, that God had directly and intentionally created Mankind on Earth. And indeed you appear still to believe that even today, correct?. But all of science has shown that Man clearly evolved from earlier apes around 300,000 years ago (and before that, there were more primitive relatives of Homo Sapiens, dating back to around 5 million years ago) … there are no credible scientists today who dispute that … out of perhaps 3 million (rough guess) scientists in core science, the only ones you will find who ever express doubt or disbelief about evolution, are a handful of religious fundamentalists who in fact cannot in any case publish any genuine papers with any results against evolution.

So when you are talking about what is logical and rational and the need to agree with actual evidence, there is simply no argument against evolution. If you disagree with it or dispute Mans evolution, then it's is YOU who are “proved” by sceince to be not merely illogical and irrational, but illogical and irrational on an enormous scale.

And the same is true for all the many millions of other things studied and explained by modern science … that is – the only way that theists such as yourself, can keep claiming belief in invisible gods/God and miracles etc., is by denying and refusing to believe what has been shown by all of science to be the true explanation for all of those things in the entirety of this universe. That is completely illogical and irrational of you.

The rational and logical way to determine whether or not ancient uneduated belief in gods/God, miracles and the so-called “supernatural” is unarguably through scientific standards of investigation, and that means results and explanations that can withstand expert peer-review to be published in the real science research journals. And that's what people here are presenting to you as overwhelming evidence against your belief in God.

Hello. I will reply to each paragraph of your message in the following order:
- No. I do not deny human science and discoveries. And I'm proud of science. But I say that science does not deny God. And the scientific references in the Qur'an are all correct. And refers to twentieth-century science. For example, verse 47 of Sura 51 says God: "We created the heavens and We will always expand it." its definitely true. And this is a scientific sentence.
And the latest discovery in astrophysics is that the sky is expanding. And the Qur'an said 14 centuries ago. You see, the Qur'an does not say details. He left the details to humans. The important thing is that; Has stated the scientific principle. If he did not tell the details. I told the reason. And this is not a reason for the invalidity of the Qur'an. You are reading a scientific dissertation or scientific article that has stated the scientific principles. But he did not give the details. Do you question the validity of this article? No.
- All scientific articles are valid evidence that proves God. Because all sciences study the signs of God's creation. And prove the existence of God. So we have to think wisely and logically.
- We do not deny the previous generations of humans on earth. We do not deny the evolution of primitive beings to humans. We do not deny the human race of apes. Rather, we believe that a new generation called "Adam" on planet Earth has been created by God's command to continue the previous generations. And it has distinguished the human race from other creatures. And its advantage over other creatures is having intellect and knowledge.
- I have quoted at least 7 verses from the Qur'an that refer to evolution. Of course, it does not tell the details. It only points out that there is a theory of evolution.
- Your argument for the universe is scientific. And we agree. And our argument for proving God is also with science. And with logic and rational sciences. We accept your scientific argument for the universe. And in this way we prove God. From the signs of creation. So why do not you accept our logical reasoning to prove God? We accept science. And we accept God. Both exist together. I have proved that "science" and "perception" are not matter. And is of the supernatural. Do you have anything to say about this? Say” We hear.

 

[heydarian saeed]

What you are presenting as God is NOT a transcendent, all-wise spiritual being. Rather you are equating your deity with a stern father-figure, more human than divine. Indeed, a God very much made in man’s image which, of course, is exactly what God is. Merely a man writ large.

Hi. Welcome to our discussion. NO. Did the great man you say make the sky? Introduce us. To get to know him. And let us worship this great superman. Your perception of God according to your material existence. And it is natural. But the truth is something else.

 

[heydarian saeed]

Once again you are utterly 100% wrong. The verse I quoted, John 14.16 refers to the holy Ghost not Muhammad. There is absolutely nothing in the bible about Muhammad.

Here I quote verses from the Gospel of John: "I will ask the Father, and he will give you another portion, that he may abide with you for ever" (John 14, verse 16), I will send unto you from the Father, and the Spirit of truth, which cometh from the Father, he shall testify of me. (The Gospel of John, Chapter 14, verse 16(,
"But I tell you the truth. It is useful for you that if I do not go, Parqlita will not come to you. "But if I go, I will send him to you." "Because he will not say anything to himself and he will say whatever you hear and he will inform you of the future."
"And he will glorify me." All that the Father hath is mine; therefore have I said, that he shall find, and shall declare unto you "(John 16: 7-15).
Parqlita is the meaning of the word Paricletus, which means very praiseworthy in Persian and Ahmad and Muhammad in Arabic.
Before Islam, there was no difference between the scholars of Christ and the commentators of the Bible that Parqlita was the promised prophet of the Bible, even some Christians called themselves the promised Bible and adhered to this word. In his 1848 book, William Meyer states that a man from Asia Minor named Mentes claimed to be a missionary and called himself the Promised Evangelist. And a group accepted him (Besharat Ahdin, Mohammad Sadeghi, Dar al-Kitab al-Islamiyya, fourth edition, Tehran, p. 231.)
....

 

[heydarian saeed]

1651 .... Christian scholars after Islam when they came to these verses. Parqlita was translated as Paracletus, which means comforter and refers to the Holy Spirit, in order to erase the good news of the advent of Muhammad. However, it can be proved by various arguments that Parqlita is not the Holy Spirit, but the Promised Prophet who is Muhammad, and the theory of Christian scholars is rejected. Because the quoted verses announce the advent of someone after Jesus Christ (AS) who:
A. His coming was conditional on the departure of Christ, and the coming of the Holy Spirit was not conditional on such a condition. Because the Holy Spirit has come to Christ many times before and brought the divine message. And if so, the words of Jesus Christ will be a lie that he said: He will not come until I am.
B) he is another pariah who will be forever and until the extinction of the world; His personality and religion rule over humanity. If Parqlita is the Holy Spirit, Parqlita is another Holy Spirit. And this calls into question the very beliefs of Christians who say that God is manifest in three parts: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Because it increases the number of Aqaniem from 3 to 4 and more, and this is against the trinity they claim.
C) He will testify of Christ and confess him. If he is the Holy Spirit, it is necessary for him to be revealed to people other than the divine prophets. And that he will complete the religion of Christ and express his unspoken words and glorify that Imam is obvious to the improvisation of the intellect that the completion of the religion of Christ is the responsibility of the prophets, not the Holy Spirit who is of the angels and if it were the Holy Spirit To fulfill this duty, what was the need for any of the divine prophets?
D) The Holy Spirit is not the ruler of the world because the spiritual leadership is the responsibility of the prophets. And the Holy Spirit does not descend on the people, to bind the people to something and to keep them from something.
Looking at the Islamic manners and characteristics of the Holy Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) we see that all these characteristics that Jesus (pbuh) mentioned and instructed Christians to follow him are gathered in the Prophet of Islam, such as:
....

 

[heydarian saeed]

1651 .... 1) The Prophet of Islam is like the human Jesus and the Prophet.
2) One of the titles of Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) is the head of the creators, that is, the head of the world.
3) In the Qur'an, he has repeatedly testified to Jesus (pbuh) and his legitimacy in the mission. And has acknowledged Jesus and his book.
4) He never speaks for himself, and all he says is the divine revelation he received from God through Gabriel.
5) has also informed about future affairs. Like the victory of Rome in the first chapter of Rome. As well as narrations that refer to apocalyptic events.
The result is that in the heavenly religions, good news was given about the coming of the Prophet of Islam (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him). And the Qur'an has repeatedly emphasized in condemning the Jews and Christians that they knew the Prophet as their own children, but after the legitimacy of the Prophet of Islam became clear, they refused to follow him and went astray.
Of course, in the Gospel of Barnabas, which is not recognized by Christians, and at the conference of Nicaea (325 AD) with countless other Gospels was declared invalid by the newly Christianized Roman Emperor Constantine. The prophecy of the Prophet of Islam is very clearly spoken, which is stated in part of this Gospel: The chief priests and the governor of Rome and King Herod came to Jesus. (With all humility to the extent that the high priest wanted to prostrate before the Prophet) and after numerous and various conversations, the High Priest asked the Prophet about the Messiah, the promised Torah.
....

 

[heydarian saeed]

1651 .... The priest replied that it was written in the book of Moses that soon our God would send us the coming Messiah to inform us of what God wanted. And he will bring God's mercy to the world, so I hope you will tell the truth. Are you the Messiah of God that we are waiting for? Jesus answered and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, This is the promise which God hath promised: but I am not he, because he was created before me, and he that shall come after me ...(The Gospel of Barnabas, translated by Haidar Qolikhan Ghezelbash, Sardar Kaboli, Book Publishing Office, Spring '62, Chapter Ninety-Six, verses 403 and 5.)
In the following verses, until the end of chapter ninety-six, Jesus is saddened to be called God and the Son of God after him. And the priest and governor of Rome and King Herod try to comfort Jesus (pbuh) to which he replies: "But my consolation is the coming of a prophet who will destroy all false beliefs about me. And his religion will extend and cover the whole world. Because God promised this to our father Abraham. "What comforts me is that his religion has no end because God will keep him right." The priest asked if the prophets would come after him. Jesus answered, "The prophets will not come after him."
The priest then asked what it was called and what was the sign announcing his coming. The Imam replied: "Indeed, his blessed name is Muhammad. At that time, the people raised their voices and said, "O God, send us your prophet." "O Muhammad, come soon to save the world." (The Gospel of Barnabas, the same verses 5, 6, 7, 8 and chapter ninety-seven verses, 14, 18, 19.)
Of course, the answer above was a brief mention of the name of Muhammad PBUH in the Bible.

 

[heydarian saeed]

I gave heydarian the benefit of the doubt, until it became clear that he was not going to engage in an honest conversation, and not going to listen to anyone else. The pages of further debate that have followed my decision have not led me to reconsider the worth of engaging directly with him.
In terms of the wider picture, heydarian is Iranian. Contrary to the depiction in western media, Iran is not actually a hotbed of Islamic fundamentalism. I have visited that country, and was very pleasantly surprised at how educated and sophisticated many Iranians were. Heydarian has developed and maintained his fundamentalist beliefs in a society that is not, in actual fact, that religiously observant. The mosques are largely empty, and the crowds of chanting, black-clad women you see on the news are bussed in from the villages, and transported back once that particular anti-western demonstration is over. The levels of scientific and worldly knowledge I witnessed there were, in many respects, higher than in many other countries, particularly America. Islam is also tainted by its close association with the much-hated repressive theocracy that rules Iran and has caused so many problems for its people.
If heydarian can continue to insist on the veracity of his unfounded, illogical and often contradictory beliefs, whilst having plentiful access to more enlightened mindsets in his own country, I seriously doubt that his conversations here will give him any pause for thought.

Hello. You have said interesting things. I liked some of them. I just have one question: How do you define honesty? What is the procedure for honest discussion? Tell me. I look forward to hearing from you. I have left my latest photo for you in the group. Isn't this the best reason for my honesty and courage? And I'm willing to have a logical discussion with all of you. You have all formed a cohesive group. And you support each other. And I am the only one and I will answer all your questions honestly with only one book called Quran. And I stand like a mountain. And I will not give up at all.
Who do you think is the intellectual? Is there anyone who has a critical view, that is, the intellectual first protests against the status quo and at the same time tries to replace what he considers a "desirable status"? Or is it someone who consumes nothing but intellectual and moral goods imported from the West or the East? No. I act independently. And my leader is the Quran. The Qur'an says: Listen to everyone. And choose the best word. And apply. This is my intellectual slogan. I check on every subject. It does not matter to me whether it is western or eastern. From any nation. From any country. Of any religion. From any theory. And I accept the best from them. I have said it before. I am a follower of Cyrus the Great from the land of Persia.
I am Muslim. But a free Muslim. I do not belong to any group. Do not worry. In Islam, friendship with infidels is forbidden. But I also embrace the infidels. Not for a point. No. But only for humanity. I was in the desert of Mina and in the tragic incident of Mena in Saudi Arabia in 2015. I saved at least 50 people of different nationalities from certain death by CPR. They were present from every country. I helped all this with all my strength.

 

[heydarian saeed]

I find it interesting how discussions about how the Quran supposedly predicts science ignores the fact that an all knowing god forgot to tell his followers about seasonal length of days.

Have Ramadan at the wrong time of year in the north (or south) and you either starve or can eat all day.

Hi. Ramadan is a lunar month. Because the months of Islam are lunar. And in terms of the frequency of the year is different from the Gregorian and solar months in Iran. Therefore, Ramadan may be in any season. And the length of the day varies in different seasons. That's the reason. I'm glad you said Ramadan. Happy month. I have a gift for you and everyone. Just one important point: remember Ramadan every year. And see in which season. The asteroid hit the earth and its occurrence is from the beginning to the end of the holy month of Ramadan. And it will be a big event. Remember this well

 

[heydarian saeed]

I agree. And I think it's fairly obvious that, that is also what I was saying. That is - I think it's always worth persisting, because people do sometimes change their minds ... even if it takes decades ... and even if it takes some personal tragedy or other major event in their lives.





Obviously, at any one moment in time it can see like an impossible task to change the minds of religious fundamentalists (are all religious believers actually "fundamentalists" is some sense?). But if we are looking at the much longer time span, as I think we probably need to do, then I think it's obvious and true that minds can be changed (and changed for the better).

What I hope happens here, in this thread, is that heydarian eventualy goes away with a few more things to think about (things that he would not otherwise have given so much thought too). And the hope is that for heydarian and/or others like him, he eventually realises that all religious belief is so seriously incompatible with modern educational standards (especially from science education … evolution is the very obvious example), that he arrives at a stage where he simply cannot honestly believe those things any more.

At any rate, I think it's always worth giving people the benefit of the doubt, and at least trying.

Hi. I am not an Islamic fundamentalist. I do not accept communism. I do not accept violence and extremism. I am not a radical. I am not nationalism. I am not liberalism. I am not secularism. I am not a feminist. I'm not just a fundamentalist. I'm not just a reformer. I am not against Western modernism. I am not fond of Western masculinity. I am not Western or Eastern. I do not like you infidel Westerners labeling me an Islamic fundamentalist. Open your eyes well. I am pragmatic. I am a moderate who loves peace, happiness and intimacy. In such a way that it brings both the happiness of this world and the happiness of the Hereafter to humanity. Think wisely.

 

[IanS]

Hello. I will reply to each paragraph of your message in the following order:
- No. I do not deny human science and discoveries. And I'm proud of science. But I say that science does not deny God.

Science has found an absolutely enormous amount of evidence, and an enormous amount of verified explanation, for everything ever detected or observed in any way at all throughout the entire universe, all the way back 13.8billion years ago to the big bang. BUT ... in all of that science has never found any evidence whatsoever of any God; None, Zero ... literally a billion masses of evidence and explanation, and Zero sign of any God ...

... what is your explanation for that? Why is there no evidence of your God?

And the scientific references in the Qur'an are all correct. And refers to twentieth-century science. For example, verse 47 of Sura 51 says God: "We created the heavens and We will always expand it." its definitely true. And this is a scientific sentence.
And the latest discovery in astrophysics is that the sky is expanding. And the Qur'an said 14 centuries ago. You see, the Qur'an does not say details. He left the details to humans. The important thing is that; Has stated the scientific principle. If he did not tell the details. I told the reason. And this is not a reason for the invalidity of the Qur'an. You are reading a scientific dissertation or scientific article that has stated the scientific principles. But he did not give the details. Do you question the validity of this article? No.
- All scientific articles are valid evidence that proves God. Because all sciences study the signs of God's creation. And prove the existence of God. So we have to think wisely and logically.
- We do not deny the previous generations of humans on earth. We do not deny the evolution of primitive beings to humans. We do not deny the human race of apes. Rather, we believe that a new generation called "Adam" on planet Earth has been created by God's command to continue the previous generations. And it has distinguished the human race from other creatures. And its advantage over other creatures is having intellect and knowledge.
- I have quoted at least 7 verses from the Qur'an that refer to evolution. Of course, it does not tell the details. It only points out that there is a theory of evolution.
- Your argument for the universe is scientific. And we agree. And our argument for proving God is also with science. And with logic and rational sciences. We accept your scientific argument for the universe. And in this way we prove God. From the signs of creation. So why do not you accept our logical reasoning to prove God? We accept science. And we accept God. Both exist together. I have proved that "science" and "perception" are not matter. And is of the supernatural. Do you have anything to say about this? Say” We hear.

OK, I am not going to go through all of the above yet again... it's all the same claims you have made here 50 times before! There are NO passages in the Koran that describe or predict or explain any modern science. None. Not a single one. This has been explained to you at least 50 times or more by everyone here ...

... you are taking entirely mundane simplistic passages that talk about such things as anyone seeing the moon at night or seeing the sun during the day, and just because it has the word "Sun" or "Moon" you then claim it's describing nuclear physics and quantum theory ... claims like that would not fool even a poorly educated 8 year old.

And by the way you have still not answered, or even attempted to answer, any of the 4 or 5 questions that I asked you about above and which you said you would answer ... please go back, look at those questions, and try to give an honest unbiased answer.