Cont: The Sinking of MS Estonia: Case Re-opened Part III

[JayUtah]

They recovered the hydrostatic unit (HRU). This is automatically activated when immersed in a sufficient depth of water. You can see them putting it in their net bag.

The release unit activated at depth. Activation for a release unit means releasing the thing it's holding. That's not the same as activation for the thing it's holding. You've been given ample authority for the statement that the things they were holding were manually activated. Your stubborn insistence to the contrary based on your conflation of dissimilar objects has reached comical levels of desperation.

 

[Vixen]

It was pointed out in the report how poorly the traditional lifeboats performed and that it is a common failing. They only work well when the ship is on an even keel, the weather is calm and the crew are well trained and proficient in their launching.

There is a reason that modern lifeboats are completely enclosed and on a lot of ships 'freefall' bow first down a ramp.

[qimg]https://i.imgur.com/t0OV7orl.jpg[/qimg]

Links if you want to buy one for your ship.

https://myviking.viking-life.com/en...boats/Free-fall-lifeboats/c/freeFallLifeboats
https://www.palfingermarine.com/en/boats-and-davits/life-and-rescue-boats/free-fall-lifeboats

This 4-D simulation shows you what Estonia's lifeboat layout was, together with a walk along the promenade deck.

 

[Andy_Ross]

As soon as it was submerged in a 40°, which was shortly after 01:00, instead of which the Swedish naval base was alerted a whole one hour later.

Given how fast the ship sank, the circumstances: networks apparently down, Channel 16 weak and interference, Captains of nearby ship having to use NMT mobile phones instead, zero evacuation of the passengers - and this cannot have just been the crew's fault, everybody was taken completely by surprise; you can hear it in the voice of the Europa Captain, 'Estonia, are you calling...Mayday?' - the JAIC should have investigated the possibility of sabotage instead of writing off all of these issues as just one of those things.

Networks were not 'down' Channel 16 was working as expected in the area given the conditions and state of the Estonia.
They only had a handheld low power radio available because they waited until after they lost power to send a Mayday.
The transmission was picked up and acted on.


There was a partial evacuation but the command team on the Estonia left it too late to be effective and the crew made a mess of it.
You can read the details in the report

From The Government of the Republic of Estonia Final report on the MV ESTONIA disaster
CHAPTER 13 DEVELOPMENT OF THE ACCIDENT
Section 13.2.7 The evacuation

At about 0120 hrs, i.e. five minutes after the list developed, a weak female voice was heard over the public address system calling in Estonian “Häire, häire, laeval on häire” (Estonian for: “Alarm, alarm, there is alarm on the ship”). Shortly thereafter the second officer A called the alarm Mr Skylight to number one and two. About two minutes later the general international life boat alarm was initiated.

The time available for evacuation to open deck was between 10 and 20 minutes. During this period at least 237 people escaped from the vessel.

Also see Chapter 16 Analysis of the evacuation

 

[Jack by the hedge]

As soon as it was submerged in a 40°, which was shortly after 01:00, instead of which the Swedish naval base was alerted a whole one hour later.

And the EPIRBs might have been located two hours after the ship sank, so keep it in perspective. Ships had arrived at the scene before that.

Given how fast the ship sank, the circumstances: networks apparently down...

Which "networks" and how "apparent" is it when you can't corroborate any of that?

Channel 16 weak and interference...

So weak that only 14 receivers heard the mayday despite the interference happening in another part of the Baltic.

Captains of nearby ship having to use NMT mobile phones instead, zero evacuation of the passengers - and this cannot have just been the crew's fault, everybody was taken completely by surprise; you can hear it in the voice of the Europa Captain, 'Estonia, are you calling...Mayday?' - the JAIC should have investigated the possibility of sabotage instead of writing off all of these issues as just one of those things.

Nothing you've said there is evidence of sabotage. The JAIC should have investigated the evidence. And they did.

 

[Vixen]

It did not 'partially' sink, it capsized and sank in just a few minutes.

Now you are trolling.

 

[Vixen]

Saying so repeatedly won't make it so. But by all means try to resuscitate your credibility by repeatedly calling your critics liars.



It is an objection to your willfully ignorant opinion on a subject you can't demonstrate you know anything about -- how ships sink. No one is "downplaying" the sinking of MS Estonia. But the people who are objecting to your uninformed "because I say so" argument are generally far more informed than you on the subject and have given you well-reasoned, well-documented reasons for their objection. Your unwillingness to address those reasons does not make their authors liars.



You've hardly mentioned him because you know no one here considers him an authoritative source. But you're still relying on that source to provide you with arguments and "facts." The fact that you learned to hide discredited sources doesn't keep your critics from knowing where you get your wacky claims.

If you think appealing to the crowd and oppressiveness is an effective method of debate, then have at it.

 

[Jack by the hedge]

Now you are trolling.

Says the person who just made up a claim that anybody here said GPS was not available until 1998.

 

[Vixen]

That's literally what he said. Again, your reading comprehension seems to be broken.

Stop lying. He said:

"Strangely, I seem to recall that 137 people were rescued and survived."


Out of almost 1,000 people on the ship it is a stupid comment, as if that shows the rescue effort was a success, when even of those 300 or so who got onto a life raft about half of them perished anyway.

How ignorant to consider rescue of 137 (58 of whom were crew, many of whom were well-prepared), so jusy 79 passengers.

Stop personalising your comments. Your persistent reading comprehension jibe is childish and pathetic, better suited to the playground.

 

[Andy_Ross]

Now you are trolling.

https://assets.publishing.service.g...estigation_HeraldofFreeEnterprise-MSA1894.pdf

 

[Vixen]

That is just the bracket and container, it is not the buoy. They were recovered from the sea along with other floating debris by fishing boats.

Hello? It is the man-overboard buoy and the HRU, as stipulated in the Rockwater Report.

 

[JayUtah]

Now you are trolling.

No, he's reporting what the official report said, and what is generally believed in the industry. Your ignorant protests to the contrary do not change facts.

 

[Jack by the hedge]

Stop lying. He said:

"Strangely, I seem to recall that 137 people were rescued and survived."


Out of almost 1,000 people on the ship it is a stupid comment, as if that shows the rescue effort was a success, when even of those 300 or so who got onto a life raft about half of them perished anyway.

How ignorant to consider rescue of 137 (58 of whom were crew, many of whom were well-prepared), so jusy 79 passengers.

Stop personalising your comments. Your persistent reading comprehension jibe is childish and pathetic, better suited to the playground.

I am sick and tired of giving you the benefit of the doubt when you post replies which seem to bear no relation to the points you reply to, or which appear to exhibit incomprehension of technical but straightforward subjects which have been explained multiple times.

 

[Vixen]

The release unit activated at depth. Activation for a release unit means releasing the thing it's holding. That's not the same as activation for the thing it's holding. You've been given ample authority for the statement that the things they were holding were manually activated. Your stubborn insistence to the contrary based on your conflation of dissimilar objects has reached comical levels of desperation.

The HRU's are standardised for the automatically activated Epirbs. In the Kannad brochure it is illustrated by a Hammar make HRU.

The one in the Rockwater video appears to have an orange label rather than a yellow one. (The white and black bit is the diver's glove.)

 

[Steve]

Now you are trolling.

 

[Vixen]

Networks were not 'down' Channel 16 was working as expected in the area given the conditions and state of the Estonia.
They only had a handheld low power radio available because they waited until after they lost power to send a Mayday.
The transmission was picked up and acted on.


There was a partial evacuation but the command team on the Estonia left it too late to be effective and the crew made a mess of it.
You can read the details in the report

From The Government of the Republic of Estonia Final report on the MV ESTONIA disaster
CHAPTER 13 DEVELOPMENT OF THE ACCIDENT
Section 13.2.7 The evacuation





Also see Chapter 16 Analysis of the evacuation

For crying out loud. Putting out an emergency call at 01:20 when anyone still left inside had virtually zero chance of escape is not an evacuation by any stretch of imagination.

 

[Andy_Ross]

Hello? It is the man-overboard buoy and the HRU, as stipulated in the Rockwater Report.

Which are nothing to do with the EPIRB.

 

[Vixen]

And the EPIRBs might have been located two hours after the ship sank, so keep it in perspective. Ships had arrived at the scene before that.




Which "networks" and how "apparent" is it when you can't corroborate any of that?So weak that only 14 receivers heard the mayday despite the interference happening in another part of the Baltic.

Nothing you've said there is evidence of sabotage. The JAIC should have investigated the evidence. And they did.

It is not for me to show sabotage. That should have been the JAIC's responsibility.

 

[Andy_Ross]

The HRU's are standardised for the automatically activated Epirbs. In the Kannad brochure it is illustrated by a Hammar make HRU.

The one in the Rockwater video appears to have an orange label rather than a yellow one. (The white and black bit is the diver's glove.)

The same units are used for manual and automatic buoys.

We know the Estonia buoys were manual because even though they were released they did not activate and were recovered from the sea still turned off.
When they were tested the worked as they should and their signal was detected.

The EPIRB beacons along with some liferafts and lifejackets were found on 2 October 1994 by two Estonian fishing vessels in the vicinity of Dirhami on the north coast of Estonia. The beacons were switched off when found.
On 28 December 1994 the condition of the above EPIRBs was tested by the Finnish experts. The radio beacons proved to be in full working order when switched on.
On 24 January 1995 both EPIRBs were activated on board the Estonian icebreaker TARMO, when they worked without interval for four hours. According to the Russian COSPAS Mission control centre, whose area of responsibility includes the Estonian waters, the radio beacons were transmitting the signal in the normal way throughout the test period.

 

[Vixen]

Which are nothing to do with the EPIRB.

They were stored side by side, along with the other tools recovered.


I am guessing the other Epirb was on the other side of the bridge.


Remember: the Epirb itself was missing.

 

[Jack by the hedge]

It is a calculated lie, to detract from how rapidly the Estonia sank and trying to present this as perfectly normal..

The Herald of Free Enterprise got into trouble and sank until it hit the bottom in a couple of minutes. How long did it take the Estonia's sinking to progress as far as that?