Discussion: Transwomen are not women (Part 7)

[sir drinks-a-lot]

A person's gender identity is not defined by how well they conform to gender stereotypes.

What, positively, is a gender identity? Can you give the name of a gender or two and also state what the labels represent?

 

[Cain]

One of my pet peeves is people demanding answers to questions that they themselves will not answer, so I had better give my answer to my question. I think harm was done, on the day of the incident. I think that the anxiety that women feel when they are disrobed and in the presence of an unknown and untrusted naked male is normal. You could say that modesty ia valid lived condition. Causing that anxiety constitutes harm.

Can't say much with the facts in dispute. What we can do is take an imaginary case: A self-identified trans woman with a penis and scrotum disrobes at a spa in a space designated for women. Women in this space are distressed and report the incident (or "incident") to the owners and the authorities. If that did occur, then should we say the cis-gender female complainers are transphobes?

Twenty-five years ago, women would feel anxious if a butch lesbian entered the spa. Maybe they still feel uncomfortable. Men would feel uncomfortable being around gays, even shaking a hand. The argument has been "get over your homophobia."

It is interesting how we have "anxiety" constituting a harm here, which I think is fair, but the "woke" are not taken seriously for what they say constitutes harmful behavior (silence is violence, words are violence). People have tried to argue public nudity is an expression of free speech (who am I hurting in my natural state?). In the spa there's an expectation that someone can appear nude, but there's also an expectation that the female section will have females.

Children can get scared if they see someone disfigured, or an unusually small person with adult features, or an unusually tall person. Typically it's something we say they need to outgrow, but people just expect adults to adapt. We're animals, and our animal brains naturally judge people by their appearance; humans struggle when it comes to taking into account abstractions. In this female safe space, the male form is triggering.

 

[Cain]

Yeah, it's a strange world. There's also fitness competitions, and those women at least still look like women.

They do but PEDs are still rampant (in milder doses). I did some research, you know, for science, and as far as I can tell, 100% of these girls have had breast implants.

 

[Meadmaker]

Can't say much with the facts in dispute.

There are no facts in dispute that i'm aware of, with the possible exception of the question of whether Darren Merager is or is not a woman.

What we can do is take an imaginary case: A self-identified trans woman with a penis and scrotum disrobes at a spa in a space designated for women. Women in this space are distressed and report the incident (or "incident") to the owners and the authorities. If that did occur, then should we say the cis-gender female complainers are transphobes?

That case isn't imaginary. That's exactly what happened at Wi Spa. There's no dispute.

There is some dispute over whether the person's self identification is accurate. or in this case, honest.

ETA: I realized I didn't answer the question. The word "transphobe" gets used a lot without much in the way of definition. However, I would say that their distress is not due to anything related to transgenders. They are not transphobic. They are androphobic, at least when it comes to the presence of males in places where females take off their clothes.

Twenty-five years ago, women would feel anxious if a butch lesbian entered the spa.

It's a common observation, and a common fallacy. There were instances where anxiety was experienced that we subsequently decided the anxiety was not legitimate, therefore this anxiety is also not legitimate.

I am saying that there is a fundamental difference between anxiety about nudity around an unknown male versus nudity around a lesbian, or a black person, or whatever other examples are frequently trotted out. I am saying that the anxiety around males is instinctive, and the other forms are societally induced.


Of your examples, I think the closest is actually the anxiety around disfigured people. I think that's instinctive, and it illustrates an odd thing that is unique to humans. We can, and in some cases we should, overcome our instinctive feelings. I think it is instinctive to react unpleasantly to disfigured people, but we know that, in reality, there is nothing to fear from disfigured people, and we ought to treat them nicely and set aside our anxiety. Moreover, we find that when we make a conscious effort to do so, the anxiety itself goes away. It's something we can control with time and practice, and we ought to do so.


So, perhaps the same is true about being around transwomen in women-only spaces? Let's think about that for a minute.

Men are bigger and stronger than women, and if they are capable of erection then they are also capable of rape. That means that the fear is not irrational. (i.e. it might be an emotional response, as opposed to a reasoned response, but that emotional response corresponds with the an actual, legitimate, threat detection.) Being humans, though, we can evaluate the threat rationally, and perhaps we can determine that the threat posed by the naked male is sufficiently small that women can train themselves to avoid that emotional response, and stop feeling anxiety.

Exactly how to do that could be the subject of some further exploration, but I won't try to write an essay about it right now. A prerequisite to examing the possibilities is that all parties participating would have to acknowledge the legitimacy of that anxiety in the first place.

 

[Emily's Cat]

I did see in a Reddit thread people claiming sex vs. gender / biological vs. social-construction distinction is hogwash because HRT "alters a person's biology," and therefore their sex. Heart surgery also alters biology.

Someone asked if female bodybuilders, who take loads of male hormones, can be considered men (apparently female bodybuilders take great offense when someone says they are men or want to be men). I don't think anyone answered that question.

I responded to that same sort of argument not too long ago by noting that I take natural porcine thyroid. Does that make me part piggy? And if so, should I identify as a sow or a boar?

 

[Emily's Cat]

I'm curious how TERFs handle such a ruling. On one hand, "religious exemption" has long been the mechanism by which sexist medical policy has been legalized, particularly around denying women access to reproductive medicine. On the other hand, some trans person stands to have their rights vindicated, and that's a direct threat to their trans-exclusionary worldview. It's one of the many instances where trans rights is clearly embedded within a broader struggle for LGBT and/or women's rights, which must be awfully inconvenient for trans-exclusionary groups like LGB alliance and other TERFs.

I imagine they'll just ignore this legal battle entirely.

Honestly, most of the females I know who don't accept gender ideology have no complaints about a person getting a voluntary sterilization, provided they are an adult and are fully informed of the risks and the long-term effects.

Many are also, however, quite frustrated that transgender people are getting access to procedures like this in order to affirm their gender identity, when females are frequently denied those same procedures when there are actual harmful medical conditions driving their desire for a hysterectomy. Females with fibroids, endometriosis, and other reproductive conditions are routinely denied a hysterectomy as "not medically necessary", even when those conditions create significant pain and health risks.

I was denied a hysterectomy despite having a fibroid that hemorrhaged and nearly killed me. My female parent was denied a hysterectomy for severe endometriosis until after the endometrial cells had fused their uterus to their lower intestine and created a fistula. It's frustrating that some people gain access to hysterectomies for reasons that are not medically necessary, while those of us with medical conditions that would benefit from it are denied.

 

[Sherkeu]

I suppose it shouldn't surprise me that the question about harm in the Wi Spa case went unanswered. There's no "on script" answer available.

I asked about this back in Nov 2019 - thread #2 (Bath of Khan). Kelly had brought up the issue of children in segregated 'naked' spaces. I said:

That made me wonder about what they have done at the Korean spas where there are many naked kids. ???
Traditional Korean spas are all ages but strictly gender segregated and it is mandatory to be nude in the segregated spaces. There is a whole process of showering and scrubbing before you can go in the pools. It's all communal. Last time I went to one, there were mostly grandmothers with young girls there for the day. Korean spas are multi-generational family affairs. (at least on the women's side)

Spas were being reported/sued/threatened for refusing lawful entry or segregating by genitals only. They MUST allow anyone whose gender says Female on their I.D. into the all-women naked spaces. The MtF's of the more exhibitionist style have shown up, and the women are not happy.

Only one short response from Lithrael saying the spa could separate by "junk or no junk" areas.

I'm don't think the part about "female on I.D." is accurate anymore. California law now allows a gender "X" so it's all choices.


You can find multiple online complaints from the last few years well before this last incident.(at least 2 different male bodies from back then, but perhaps no more than that- just multiple visits. Obviously there are more since)
Here are a few from 2018/9
(I cannot see many of the newer ones as many now violate 'terms of service' and even some of the older ones are in the 'not recommended' review section):

(most are Korean speakers so english is choppy)
============
"I saw a man last Sunday at women's sauna. he bragged about his big dick.. young children got shocked and screaming..also, I got panic..
I complained 3 times to wispa manager.
He is not a transgender.. I saw his big dick and he walked around young girls for showing his big dick.
Call the police.. please..
But they keep saying to me .. According to the law..they can not kick him out..
Young girls may get terrible trauma from this experience."

============
"I clearly heard him say that he has had sex with probably one hundred women and that he was looking for a female girlfriend to share his time with.
This guy is Not transgender, he seems to be just a "pervie"

I heard from other ladies there that he goes there quite often.
Management said that according to the Law there was nothing they could do..
I enjoy going to the Wi Spa and is not fair to me or other women to be put in this position where you basically have to leave the Spa because you feel uncomfortable in such situation.

I wouldn't have minded the situation at all if that guy was really transgender, but obviously he is not. I'm concerned about my safety and the safety of other women in the spa"

=============
"I was like this spa before ! But today make me feel so uncomfortable and sick . One man in the lady's bathroom, said he is transgender! Oh my god ! How ? I do not think so , He has man's body ，Everythins is a true man !!! He was sitting for 3hours for watching everyone take bath.crazy!! Not only me feel uncomfortable,a lot of girls just standing outside and talking each other ,then we were try to talk WI Spa Manager,They just said he is a transgender,that's all.can not let him go out ! So I just leaving ~ I also feel lucky too,because I did not take my daughter (5years girl)go with me today"

===========
"...So, I said it's ok (after being advised at the desk). But I didn't quite assumed or acknowledged what I would feel until I faced him naked with my little girl. This so called himself a transgender looks totally like a Male. Very muscular, has beard, wearing wigs(took on and off as he needed) and has male genital. Fortunately, I was able to try my best to have my daughter didn't get to see him. I definitely felt unsafe and unpleasant. I rapidly cover my daughter.
A lady I met at wash area, was also worried by saying what if he's not a transgender. I felt the same thing. Ok, we might be wrong. Maybe this transgender has real woman inside.

It's not about sexual issues. Its about how I feel as a woman and a mom, facing a transgender with perfectly male body figure and male genital when you are totally naked with little daughter."

=========
"We walked in to the women's pool room and quickly noticed a MAN in drag sitting in one of the pools! Shocked and I panicked, I quickly hid my private areas and hid myself. Like the other Yelp reviewer, I agree that he is a full stocky man with bad makeup. He is no way anywhere near transition.

Now I complained to the front desk and all they could say is sorry but we can't discriminate him. Wow...shocked. I feel like this facility does not care about our safety and rights."
===========

 

[TurkeysGhost]

Many are also, however, quite frustrated that transgender people are getting access to procedures like this in order to affirm their gender identity, when females are frequently denied those same procedures when there are actual harmful medical conditions driving their desire for a hysterectomy. Females with fibroids, endometriosis, and other reproductive conditions are routinely denied a hysterectomy as "not medically necessary", even when those conditions create significant pain and health risks.

I was denied a hysterectomy despite having a fibroid that hemorrhaged and nearly killed me. My female parent was denied a hysterectomy for severe endometriosis until after the endometrial cells had fused their uterus to their lower intestine and created a fistula. It's frustrating that some people gain access to hysterectomies for reasons that are not medically necessary, while those of us with medical conditions that would benefit from it are denied.

Who do you think is responsible for you not getting good medical care? (Pro tip, it's not trans people who also routinely get substandard care)

If you're in the US, smart money would bet some bloodthirsty insurance company denied coverage and that was that.

 

[Matthew Best]

============
"I saw a man last Sunday at women's sauna. he bragged about his big dick.. young children got shocked and screaming..also, I got panic..
I complained 3 times to wispa manager.
He is not a transgender.. I saw his big dick and he walked around young girls for showing his big dick.
Call the police.. please..
But they keep saying to me .. According to the law..they can not kick him out..
Young girls may get terrible trauma from this experience."

============
"I clearly heard him say that he has had sex with probably one hundred women and that he was looking for a female girlfriend to share his time with.
This guy is Not transgender, he seems to be just a "pervie"

I heard from other ladies there that he goes there quite often.
Management said that according to the Law there was nothing they could do..
I enjoy going to the Wi Spa and is not fair to me or other women to be put in this position where you basically have to leave the Spa because you feel uncomfortable in such situation.

I wouldn't have minded the situation at all if that guy was really transgender, but obviously he is not. I'm concerned about my safety and the safety of other women in the spa"

=============
"I was like this spa before ! But today make me feel so uncomfortable and sick . One man in the lady's bathroom, said he is transgender! Oh my god ! How ? I do not think so , He has man's body ，Everythins is a true man !!! He was sitting for 3hours for watching everyone take bath.crazy!! Not only me feel uncomfortable,a lot of girls just standing outside and talking each other ,then we were try to talk WI Spa Manager,They just said he is a transgender,that's all.can not let him go out ! So I just leaving ~ I also feel lucky too,because I did not take my daughter (5years girl)go with me today"

===========
"...So, I said it's ok (after being advised at the desk). But I didn't quite assumed or acknowledged what I would feel until I faced him naked with my little girl. This so called himself a transgender looks totally like a Male. Very muscular, has beard, wearing wigs(took on and off as he needed) and has male genital. Fortunately, I was able to try my best to have my daughter didn't get to see him. I definitely felt unsafe and unpleasant. I rapidly cover my daughter.
A lady I met at wash area, was also worried by saying what if he's not a transgender. I felt the same thing. Ok, we might be wrong. Maybe this transgender has real woman inside.

It's not about sexual issues. Its about how I feel as a woman and a mom, facing a transgender with perfectly male body figure and male genital when you are totally naked with little daughter."

=========
"We walked in to the women's pool room and quickly noticed a MAN in drag sitting in one of the pools! Shocked and I panicked, I quickly hid my private areas and hid myself. Like the other Yelp reviewer, I agree that he is a full stocky man with bad makeup. He is no way anywhere near transition.

Now I complained to the front desk and all they could say is sorry but we can't discriminate him. Wow...shocked. I feel like this facility does not care about our safety and rights."
===========

Obviously TERFS spouting transphobic hate speech.

 

[Meadmaker]

I asked about this back in Nov 2019 - thread #2 (Bath of Khan). Kelly had brought up the issue of children in segregated 'naked' spaces. I said:

I had forgotten about this.

You mean.....this happened more than once? Shocked, I am.

I suppose the most recent incident made headlines because there was a video posted about the confrontation with staff.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

I had forgotten about this.

You mean.....this happened more than once? Shocked, I am.

I suppose the most recent incident made headlines because there was a video posted about the confrontation with staff.

More it made headlines because the incident was used as a pretext for a violent fascist rally. The crimes committed at this rally are, objectively speaking, much more severe than what was alleged in the spa. One man, a regular brawler at other far-right events, has since been charged with assault with a deadly weapon for clubbing a journalist in the head. A woman was stabbed in a case of friendly fire as she tried to help another the armed fascist to his feet during a brawl, and a woman journalist for the Guardian was attacked.

https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2021-09-22/lapd-arrest-suspect-wi-spa-attack

Simmons, 30, was charged by prosecutors last week, accused of striking independent filmmaker Rocky Romano over the head with a heavy baton-like weapon outside the Wi Spa in Westlake on July 3. Romano was wearing a helmet and had the word “PRESS” in lettering across his back.

Simmons, who could not be reached for comment, is also under scrutiny from at least two other local police agencies based on allegations that he assaulted others.

 

[Olmstead]

The simple answer is complete desegregation. If some males with male genitals are okay, why aren't all males with male genitals okay? There's some weird fallacy going on. Something along the lines of "It's okay, because there are too few to matter".

It's intellectually dishonest.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

The simple answer is complete desegregation. If some males with male genitals are okay, why aren't all males with male genitals okay? There's some weird fallacy going on. Something along the lines of "It's okay, because there are too few to matter".

It's intellectually dishonest.

There's also the intellectual dishonesty that only some forms of modesty are worth protecting. If you're a child that doesn't like a same-sex person seeing your genitalia, that's too bad for you because society has determined that same-sex aggression isn't worth worrying about.

People should be free to exercise as much personal modesty as they chose, and trans-exclusionary sex-segregation is pretty piss-poor at accomplishing that.

 

[Olmstead]

There's also the intellectual dishonesty that only some forms of modesty are worth protecting. If you're a child that doesn't like a same-sex person seeing your genitalia, that's too bad for you because society has determined that same-sex aggression isn't worth worrying about.

People should be free to exercise as much personal modesty as they chose, and trans-exclusionary sex-segregation is pretty piss-poor at accomplishing that.

Sure, I agree (although there's a lot of cultural baggage about bodies of the opposite sex, and I'm not sure that's going away any time soon).

But I don't see how some weird loophole solves this in a reasonable way. If someone is scared of spiders, they're not going to be reassured if you try to convince them that the very real spiders in their room are actually kittens. You need to convince them that the spiders are harmless.

 

[Cain]

There are no facts in dispute that i'm aware of, with the possible exception of the question of whether Darren Merager is or is not a woman.

That case isn't imaginary. That's exactly what happened at Wi Spa. There's no dispute.

There is some dispute over whether the person's self identification is accurate. or in this case, honest.

This is 100% immaterial.

The word "transphobe" gets used a lot without much in the way of definition. However, I would say that their distress is not due to anything related to transgenders. They are not transphobic. They are androphobic, at least when it comes to the presence of males in places where females take off their clothes.

That's an interesting distinction.

Re: Butch women experiencing homophobia

It's a common observation, and a common fallacy. There were instances where anxiety was experienced that we subsequently decided the anxiety was not legitimate, therefore this anxiety is also not legitimate.

I am saying that there is a fundamental difference between anxiety about nudity around an unknown male versus nudity around a lesbian, or a black person, or whatever other examples are frequently trotted out. I am saying that the anxiety around males is instinctive, and the other forms are societally induced.

And this matters why? Because people are generally more capable of overcoming learned/environmental anxieties as opposed to native anxieties?

Of your examples, I think the closest is actually the anxiety around disfigured people. I think that's instinctive, and it illustrates an odd thing that is unique to humans. We can, and in some cases we should, overcome our instinctive feelings. I think it is instinctive to react unpleasantly to disfigured people, but we know that, in reality, there is nothing to fear from disfigured people, and we ought to treat them nicely and set aside our anxiety. Moreover, we find that when we make a conscious effort to do so, the anxiety itself goes away. It's something we can control with time and practice, and we ought to do so.

So, perhaps the same is true about being around transwomen in women-only spaces? Let's think about that for a minute.

Men are bigger and stronger than women, and if they are capable of erection then they are also capable of rape. That means that the fear is not irrational. (i.e. it might be an emotional response, as opposed to a reasoned response, but that emotional response corresponds with the an actual, legitimate, threat detection.) Being humans, though, we can evaluate the threat rationally, and perhaps we can determine that the threat posed by the naked male is sufficiently small that women can train themselves to avoid that emotional response, and stop feeling anxiety.

Exactly how to do that could be the subject of some further exploration, but I won't try to write an essay about it right now. A prerequisite to examing the possibilities is that all parties participating would have to acknowledge the legitimacy of that anxiety in the first place.

I think this exploration is fair-minded. I haven't given it much thought, but I'm inclined to agree with where you're going and happy to have you do a lot of thinking for me. Building on that, I would add the environment could change the dynamic. A lady alone with a guy will feel more vulnerable than if she's in public. While surrounded by others, a woman might not hesitate to humiliate a man who expresses sexual interest, but she wouldn't be as sharp-tongued if she were one of two people in a hotel elevator. In a spa with lots of other women and staff, fear of rape seems significantly less rational.

A problem with crimes of sexual violence is that they're often opportunistic, and a man posing as trans hanging out in bathrooms or spas could be dangerous.

 

[Sherkeu]

Obviously TERFS spouting transphobic hate speech.

Obviously! /s

But that's the weird thing about the knee jerk reaction in calling these types of concerns TERF intolerance. These women aren't complaining about transgendered persons.

None are saying bad things about transgender women as a group or their rights.
They are disturbed by the total lack of transition, the exhibitionism, and pervy behavior of the males in question - and then conclude the person could NOT be really transgender.

 

[Meadmaker]

And this matters why? Because people are generally more capable of overcoming learned/environmental anxieties as opposed to native anxieties?

Yes.

 

[theprestige]

A person's gender identity is not defined by how well they conform to gender stereotypes.

At the moment it doesn't seem to be defined by anything at all.

Being a "woman" or a "man" is not a medical condition.

On the other hand, being male and convinced that you cannot experience basic human happiness unless you have access to spaces reserved for females, or that you need surgery and chemical treatments to more closely approximate the female form, probably is a medical condition.

But okay, sure. If transgenderism isn't a medical condition, then there's no medical-humanitarian argument to be made for accommodating transgender folks, any more than there's a medical-humanitarian argument for accommodating furries.

---

And since I can feel the homosexual analogy circling back around in its ever-widening gyre:

No. Homosexuality is about the sex that you are attracted to. Transsexuality is the opposite. It's about the sex that others "should be" attracted to in you. Where the gay woman says, "I'm attracted to other women", the transwoman says, "you should be attracted to my womanhood".

 

[Ziggurat]

Who do you think is responsible for you not getting good medical care? (Pro tip, it's not trans people who also routinely get substandard care)

If you're in the US, smart money would bet some bloodthirsty insurance company denied coverage and that was that.

That may well be. But by the same token, when trans people don't get their purely elective "trans-affirming" medical procedures paid for by someone else, it's not a denial of trans rights.

 

[Sherkeu]

More it made headlines because the incident was used as a pretext for a violent fascist rally. The crimes committed at this rally are, objectively speaking, much more severe than what was alleged in the spa.

So what? What is the point of such a comparison?

Seems you are diminishing an alleged sexual crime against women and girls, as long as some outside group hears about it and does something you find worse afterwards.