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Does Matter Really Exist?

Iacchus said:
Once again, the alleged words of Max Planck ...
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Gunderscoredamn it, Iacchus. Let him REST.

Iacchus said:
Aside from the fact that it's a widely held belief?
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By whom ? Widely held by you ?

Why do you try to make it sound like I'm the only one who maintains it?
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Because you're the only one who maintains it. Anyone else, here, quoting planck ? Well, I think it's time I join the fun:

"No burden is so heavy for a man to bear as a succession of happy days."
- Max Planck (allegedly)

Mercutio said:
Because you have chosen to be actively, aggressively ignorant.
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Wow! Iacchus has passed the WILLFULLY ignorant stage and has been promoted to AGGRESSIVELY ignorant! He's become a fundy!
 
"We investigated the development of orientation preference maps in the visual cortex of kittens by repeated optical imaging from the same animal. ..."

--Godecke I, Kim DS, Bonhoeffer T, Singer W.,
Max Planck Institut fur Hirnforschung, Frankfurt/M, Germany,
"Development of orientation preference maps in area 18 of kitten visual cortex." source
 
chipmunk stew said:
"We investigated the development of orientation preference maps in the visual cortex of kittens by repeated optical imaging from the same animal. ..."

--Godecke I, Kim DS, Bonhoeffer T, Singer W.,
Max Planck Institut fur Hirnforschung, Frankfurt/M, Germany,
"Development of orientation preference maps in area 18 of kitten visual cortex." source
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Kittens can be very useful in studies that require blinding, too:

humorguesswho.jpg
 
Mercutio said:
Because you have chosen to be actively, aggressively ignorant.
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Why, because I choose to ignore you? Sorry, the mind is like a vehicle that takes us different places. Needless to say, we don't all wind up at the same place.
 
Iacchus said:
Why, because I choose to ignore you? Sorry, the mind is like a vehicle that takes us different places. Needless to say, we don't all wind up at the same place.
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That's right. Some of us travel, see new places, and meet new people.

Some of us make donuts in the parking lot.
 
ImaginalDisc said:
That's right. Some of us travel, see new places, and meet new people.

Some of us make donuts in the parking lot.
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Yes, but how do you accomplish that without the space between your ears? The only thing that takes you anywhere is your mind.
 
Iacchus said:
Yes, but how do you accomplish that without the space between your ears? The only thing that takes you anywhere is your mind.
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Denying that the world is as you imagine it to be is not the same as denying that one has an identity, a brain, a mind, even a soul, with which we can relate to the world.

For you the source and the destination seem to be the same. It's hard to find a kind and flameless way to say this. You may think you have dreamed the world and all its secrets, but I assure you, you have not.
 
bruto said:
Denying that the world is as you imagine it to be is not the same as denying that one has an identity, a brain, a mind, even a soul, with which we can relate to the world.
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The world of matter is not all there is. In fact, the world of matter cannot be experienced without a mind.
 
Iacchus said:
The world of matter is not all there is. In fact, the world of matter cannot be experienced without a mind.
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Experiances require a mind, yes, but lack of an observer doesn't make the universe go away. The universe was here an awfully long time before we showed up.


Or, god made the universe just for us, and went through an incredible amount of work putting us on the most insignificant mote of dust in an unremarkable galaxy in a universe which seems to be a playground for blackholes, more than a universe built to sustain life. Ha, ha. God the prankster, convincing us he doesn't exist.
 
Iacchus said:
Yes, the mind is our transport.
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Come on, it took you less than 60 seconds to; read my post, think about it, and respond?

You skipped a step, didn't you?

Listen, you didn't even address any of my points, you just responded to the first scentence. There's more in there. I also have another post, which I repeated, just for your benefit, to illustrate the silliness of your reasoning. Are you skipping a step in that too?
 
Iacchus said:
The world of matter is not all there is. In fact, the world of matter cannot be experienced without a mind.
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You keep saying that as if it were an argument. It isn't. It's a statement, pretty much unexceptionable, but it does not do even a little bit to make sense of the nonsense you've been saying.

Iacchus: "I see an invisible pink unicorn in my living room."

bruto: "Nonsense, I think that statement is contradictory nonsense."

Iacchus: "You are denying the existence of eyes!"
 
Iacchus said:
Why, because I choose to ignore you? Sorry, the mind is like a vehicle that takes us different places. Needless to say, we don't all wind up at the same place.
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In your case your mind doesn't take you anywhere.

Iacchus said:
Yes, but how do you accomplish that without the space between your ears? The only thing that takes you anywhere is your mind.
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So you keep saying. I don't say any upcoming proof, though.

Iacchus said:
The world of matter is not all there is. In fact, the world of matter cannot be experienced without a mind.
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Itself composed of matter. See how that works ?

Iacchus said:
Yes, the mind is our transport.
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Sheesh. You didn't even read his post, did you ?
 
Iacchus said:
The world of matter is not all there is. In fact, the world of matter cannot be experienced without a mind.
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Circular.

I will disagree with Imaginal Disc here, when he agrees with you that experience requires a mind. Our language certainly uses that phrase, but it is as inaccurate as "sunrise", which we also use.

At best, "mind" is shorthand for our perceptual and cognitive experience. In this manner, it is a descriptive, figurative metaphor, merely a label to attach to a broad spectrum of mostly private behavior--thinking, feeling, remembering, seeing, hearing...

At worst (i.e., as Iacchus uses it), "mind" is deemed the cause of all these things. This is merely the result of circular reasoning. Iacchus (and others--he is not alone in this) takes thinking, feeling, remembering, etc., and from these experiences infers a "mind". So far, so good--in fact, that is more or less the shorthand label I described in the previous paragraph. Where the circularity enters is when this inferred mind is claimed to be the cause of the experiences that allowed us to infer it in the first place. The exact same logic could lead us to claim not a mind, but a capricious god, a psychokinetic cat, or a flying spaghetti monster to be the ultimate cause of our experiences.

As Iacchus uses it, the term "mind" is useless. To claim that one cannot experience the world without this sort of mind is just silly. To claim this after having one's circular arguments laid bare time and again is...what was the phrase?...actively, aggressively ignorant.
 
Mercutio said:
Circular.

I will disagree with Imaginal Disc here, when he agrees with you that experience requires a mind. Our language certainly uses that phrase, but it is as inaccurate as "sunrise", which we also use.

At best, "mind" is shorthand for our perceptual and cognitive experience. In this manner, it is a descriptive, figurative metaphor, merely a label to attach to a broad spectrum of mostly private behavior--thinking, feeling, remembering, seeing, hearing...
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That's as far as I meant the definition of mind to go. The rest is Iacchus speak.
 
ImaginalDisc said:
That's as far as I meant the definition of mind to go. The rest is Iacchus speak.
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And if that is as far as you mean, then it makes no sense to say that one cannot experience matter without mind.


...unless one means "one cannot experience matter without giving rise to the illusion of mind", or some such.
 
Mercutio said:
And if that is as far as you mean, then it makes no sense to say that one cannot experience matter without mind.


...unless one means "one cannot experience matter without giving rise to the illusion of mind", or some such.
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If one does not have memories, or a way to catalog experiances, how exactly does one experiance anything? Do rocks experiance anything?

Edit: Horrible spelling, I banish thee.
 
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