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Discussion: Transwomen are not women (Part 7)

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LondonJohn said:
Maybe think about why her union - when most unions will defend their members & their members' actions vigorously - "took a stand" against her...
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Maybe we should all think about it. Any ideas as to why Stock needs to be unpersoned by the local union?
 
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d4m10n said:
You're bascially making my point by avoiding any mention of what Stock did wrong here.

That said, try working in any workplace after your union takes a stand against you.
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Actually I don't believe Stock was a member of the UCU. Having said that, the current UCU management are a disgrace on this issue and on academic freedom and free speech in general when it conflicts with their ideology. This type of position tends to attract ideologues.

The university has actually behaved much better in this case than the union, although it's a case of too little, too late.
 
SuburbanTurkey said:
Yeah, any union worth their salt don't really like when workers take bigoted views that are corrosive to member solidarity. It's not worth coddling some TERF when it means trans members are going to feel alienated from their fellow worker.
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Discriminating against somebody for expressing a protected philosophical belief is bigotry.

Assuming that all trans people share the same philosophical beliefs about sex and gender, and are all intolerant fundamentalists or delicate flowers unable to tolerate disagreement, is highly suspect.
 
Elaedith said:
Discriminating against somebody for expressing a protected philosophical belief is bigotry.
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Lol, there's no inalienable right to be a loser and not get laughed at. TERFs gonna have to toughen up, bigots usually have thicker skins.
 
Cracking article* in the Daily Mail!

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...limate-fear-BBC-stories-race-transgender.html


I mean**, what's the world coming to when you can't even call black people by a word that's been used for centuries, and state the obvious - that they're thick and lazy***?? Now they're coming after us for saying that transwomen are just men in drag****!!! Is there no such thing as free speech and a free media any more*****?!! What the hell is the world coming to, eh******??!!

And unsurprisingly, the vast majority of those posting online comments are in hearty agreement.....


* It's actually a hideous article - I'm using sardonic sarcasm here as a literary device - obviously*******. The article is full of the usual Daily Mail dog whistles, featuring plenty of misrepresentations and misplaced outrage. A standard Mail article, in other words. Espousing the standard bigoted viewpoint of the Daily Mail (and most of its target market).

** I don't mean (I personally mean the exact opposite). I'm using sarcasm once again here - obviously*******

*** Deliberate hyperbole, as a literary device - obviously*******

**** Not hyperbole - obviously*******

***** Yes, there is such a thing as free speech and a free media. But it has limitations. And just as, for example, it's unacceptable (and outside the boundaries of free speech and a free media) for a reputable media organisation to publish an article in which it's claimed that black people are stupid and lazy, it's also now unacceptable for a reputable media organisation to publish an article in which it's claimed that (again, eg) transmen are just butch women playing at being boys. This isn't a difficult concept to grasp.....

****** The world - the progressive part of it, anyhow - is coming to a place that's more inclusive, more understanding, and more protective of the rights of those minority groups which have previously been marginalised at best, and actively discriminated against at worst*******

******* I say "obviously", but prior experience makes it appear (sadly) necessary to me to make all of this explicit, for the benefit of those within the thread who are either unable or unwilling to understand what I'm saying in this post, or to wilfully "misinterpret" it. Have a lovely Sunday, y'all!
 
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d4m10n said:
Maybe we should all think about it. Any ideas as to why Stock needs to be unpersoned by the local union?
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Because she forcefully and repeatedly expressed views which upset and angered a great deal of the union's members? And because she turned that into a crusade rather than making even the slightest attempt to ameliorate the situation?

Just a guess, mind....... :rolleyes:
 
SuburbanTurkey said:
Yeah, any union worth their salt don't really like when workers take bigoted views that are corrosive to member solidarity. It's not worth coddling some TERF when it means trans members are going to feel alienated from their fellow worker.
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Yes. I suspect that if a person is in a workplace where many or most of their fellow workers feel upset or angered by a) the person's views on a particular issue, and b) the person's escalation of their views into a not-giving-an-inch crusade.... it's not really healthy for either the person or the person's workmates for the status quo to continue, is it?


As a comparator: I suspect that if a man made it clear to his workmates (some of whom were Muslims) that he considered Islam to be a disgraceful and invalid religion, and not much more than a breeding ground for terrorists*, and when challenged he doubled down and chose to harden rather than soften his view..... he shouldn't be all that surprised or aggrieved if many or most of his workmates - Muslims and non-Muslims alike - felt upset and angered by his position, even to the extent that they'd find it rather hard to continue working alongside him.


* Even though I am fully confident that a court would say that his views were "protected" in law.......
 
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LondonJohn said:
Because she forcefully and repeatedly expressed views which upset and angered a great deal of the union's members?
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Let's talk about those upsetting views.

Were they expressed with philosophical rigor?

Were they well argued?

Were they untrue?

ETA: Were they in any way analogous to Islamophobia, as you've implied here?
 
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It would also upset a lot of Christians if you were to argue that there's no God.

Can't have that.
 
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d4m10n said:
Let's talk about those upsetting views.

Were they expressed with philosophical rigor?

Were they well argued?

Were they untrue?

ETA: Were they in any way analogous to Islamophobia, as you've implied here?
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This is an interesting YouTube video of Dr Stock discussing the situation in academia with two transwomen.

One of the transwomen, Dr Sian Taylder, signed a statement supporting Stock and also tweeted support. A short time later she was banned for violating twitter policies and nobody can work out what she is supposed to have done.
 
LondonJohn said:
...call black people...
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How tedious.

After all this time, you still don't get why that's idiotic. You can't choose to be black.

Whether or not the majority feel they have no choice about which gender they think they are, it is certain some of them choose to be trans.

Meadmaker said:
I am frequently surprised by which questions are completely ignored.
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:dl:

Mead, quick! Someone stole your login!

After 17 years, you can't really be surprised, can you?
 
LondonJohn said:
Cracking article* in the Daily Mail!

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...limate-fear-BBC-stories-race-transgender.html
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From the article:
Last week, BBC Online ran a brave and important story about lesbians feeling coerced into accepting trans women as sexual partners – feeling, in other words, that they had to have sex with someone who is biologically a man but identifies as a woman. The coverage included an interview with a lesbian named Jeannie who said she was attracted only to biological females. As a result, she had been labelled transphobic, a genital fetishist, a pervert and a 'terf' – a trans exclusionary radical feminist – for expressing this preference.
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Hmph. In areas of intimacy, people are generally afforded a wide berth to follow their desires without (much) judgment. In recent years, for example, I've heard the more discriminating sex take the initiative to pre-empt "kink shaming." Is it transphobic for a lesbian to be uninterested in intimate relationships with trans women? I mean... I guess, but physical attraction is not rational. I wish I were attracted to conventionally ugly women.

The talk about being a "genital fetishist" or "pervert" miss the target. Fetishists and perverts are abnormal by definition while lesbians who prefer cis-gender women to trans women could be perfectly common. The fetishists are the ones "chasing" trans women.
 
LondonJohn said:
Yes. I suspect that if a person is in a workplace where many or most of their fellow workers feel upset or angered by a) the person's views on a particular issue, and b) the person's escalation of their views into a not-giving-an-inch crusade.... it's not really healthy for either the person or the person's workmates for the status quo to continue, is it?
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You are apparently completely clueless about the purpose of academia as a knowledge production industry, the role of academic freedom in ensuring we can trust the knowledge produced, and the appropriate ways for academics to address disagreements over controversial issues (by producing verbal and written critiques of arguments). This doesn't surprise me.
 
Elaedith said:
You are apparently completely clueless about the purpose of academia as a knowledge production industry, the role of academic freedom in ensuring we can trust the knowledge produced, and the appropriate ways for academics to address disagreements over controversial issues (by producing verbal and written critiques of arguments). This doesn't surprise me.
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Many people within academia are clueless about this as well.
 
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