Cont: The Sinking of MS Estonia: Case Re-opened Part III

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As the Mayday message was picked up and acted on, what is the importance of the buoys apart from being another example of a failing by the command team of the ship?
 
Vixen said:
That is not so.

smhi


Dirhami is south west of the wreckage and a southerly current along Sweden's coast means the wind is from the south, causing waves to move northwards.

Science Direct.

In other words the EPIRB buoys should have on average washed up somewhere along Finland's south - south-western coast, having been carried east to north easterly from where they should have been released.

Utter rubbish: hydrostatically released EPIRB's have been around a long time. The Rockwater Report was in December 1994 so within three months of the disaster.

The missing EPIRB's should have been a huge red flag to the JAIC instead of:




Full stop. Period.
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They weren't missing, they were found washed up, they hadn't been activated.
 
abaddon said:
Well, I almost posted the technical details of Baltic currents in a peer reviewed paper that demonstrate the route the EPIRBs would likely follow. The surface currents would initially take them SW, then circulate around and drift NE up along the Estonian coast. Wouldn't you know, there is the offending beach jutting out into the sea ready to trap them on the tide.

But I didn't post it. It was quite technical. Alas, some people struggle with technical documents.

You can have it via PM if you wish. Its public access, no paywalls. I will offer to give it to any via PM if they wish. It ain't easy reading though.
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You do not know your geography. East of the wreckage would have been towards Hanko, Helsinki or even Narva (on the border of Estonia/Russia) at a stretch. Given it was wrecked near the Finnish Archipelago, it would almost certainly have washed up on one of those island shores.

Dirhami is on coordinate 59° 12' 0" North, 23° 30' 0" East, Utö Latitude: 59° 46' 59.99" N
Longitude: 21° 21' 59.99" E.

OK, so Dirhami is slightly more to the east than Utö but pretty much on the same longitude.
 

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If, as you claim the Russians were capable of blocking channel 16 (even though they didn't and the mayday got through)
Why couldn't they have just blocked the signal from the buoys? It only has the same power as a handheld vhf radio.
 
Vixen said:
hydrostatically released EPIRB's have been around a long time.
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Yes. And they were carried by the Estonia. Hydrostatically released. Not hydrostatically activated.

As a consequence of the Estonia disaster, regulations were changed to require hydrostatic activation.

This is as dumb as you insisting the Titanic must have had enough lifeboats for everyone because it's now mandatory and obviously sensible.
 
Captain_Swoop said:
If, as you claim the Russians were capable of blocking channel 16 (even though they didn't and the mayday got through)
Why couldn't they have just blocked the signal from the buoys? It only has the same power as a handheld vhf radio.
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One is a satellite signal GPS (EPIRB) one is radio VHF.

The head of the Finnish Coastguard confirmed there was continous interference with Channel 16 coming from the Russian military base at Hogland and the Estonian government formally complained to Russia about it.

What makes you think your internet chat denial renders this void?
 
Captain_Swoop said:
No that is wring, the mount for the buoy is a separate item to the buoy itself.
They have a hydrostatic release to ensure they will only release if the ship has sunk.



Manual buoys were supposed to be activated and thrown in to the water.
Even the automatic buoys are supposed to be turned on manually and thrown in to the water to ensure they are working.
Relying on the hydrostatic release can result in a buoy not coming free or being entangled with the sinking ship.

It is the duty of a designated member of the bridge crew on each watch to ensure the buoys are activated and released.

Automatic activation is a fallback in case this doesn't happen.


Use your common sense.
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Now you are employing sophistry without actually knowing.
 
Jack by the hedge said:
<Sigh> No. It says hydrostatic release. It does not say hydrostatic activation.

The divers did not see the buoys themselves because they weren't there any more. They had been released and floated away.

Seriously, Vixen, I begin to worry about your reading comprehension. I don't mean that in any abusive or mocking way. I mean quite sincerely that you appear to be having more trouble grasping the meaning of what you are reading than seems quite normal.
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You appear to be projecting your own insecurities here.
 
Captain_Swoop said:
As the Mayday message was picked up and acted on, what is the importance of the buoys apart from being another example of a failing by the command team of the ship?
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The Mayday message took about eight minutes to act upon. Why did Europa and Mariella need the location anyway, since they were right next to the Estonia.

Transcript of Captain Thornroos of Viking Mariella:

A: And just then you got the call?
T: They were calling 'Mayday' and I jumped into my clothes and up to the bridge which took maybe just 20 seconds.
A: Mayday, was this all that came?
T: Yes, "Mayday, Estonia", he called and so he called again, and so he called for us and so he called for SILJA EUROPA, but he - one could hear that he was in full panic. Therefore we got no reasonable explanation, but then they were shooting up emergency rockets. But we got no contact with them ........ . This went on for 1 or 2 minutes. Then he called again "Mayday, Estonia" and we tried again to establish contact, but then EUROPA got contact and he tried to call in English "Do you speak Finnish?" We knew that they could speak Finnish. Then he shouted that they "Have 30° list. Blackout !" and again "30° list. Blackout !" Yes, that's what he said.
Another matter is, I believe, worth mentioning and which should be remembered by you, who are investigating this here, it concerns the alerting. After they had called out the emergency messages it was only EUROPA and we who confirmed to them, and we really had big problems establishing contact with the coastal stations. It is not as they told the media that they picked up the emergency messages. They did not do that. They did not do that before we called them over mobile phone. EUROPA phoned Turku by mobile phone and we phoned Helsinki by mobile phone. After they had sent out the emergency messages it was just EUROPA and we who replied to them.
A: Does this mean that the Rescue Services ashore never confirmed the receipt?
T: They never confirmed anything.
A: Not the receipt of the messages?
T: No, they never did so before we stirred them up by mobile phone. At first we didn't even know whom to call.
We tried at once after he had received the information from ESTONIA about her position and so on, and after the contact was interrupted we both tried, we and EUROPA, to contact MRCC and Helsinki Radio, Mariehamn radio. At first over VHF Channel 16, the emergency channel. No reaction at all. Nobody was listening in and not even in Stockholm. So we changed over to 2182, which covers the whole Baltic Sea, and were calling and calling. No contact whatsoever. The only thing we heard was somebody else calling. He spoke to EUROPA thereafter. He heard that we were calling and we heard that he was calling, but there was no reaction from ashore.
A: That means in summary that ESTONIA was sending a Mayday which was immediately only received by MARIELLA and EUROPA. It was just you two confirming receipt?
T: Yes, that was, in any event, what we heard.
A: You then tried to contact the Rescue Services?
T: Yes.
A: Both in Finland and in Sweden.
T: Yes.
A: And you did not get any reply?
T: No.
.............................
A: And then you used a mobile phone to phone the Rescue Services in Finland?
T: To phone the Rescue Services in Finland and EUROPA they did the same independently of each other. They decided to phone Turku and we decided to phone Helsinki. Subsequently they went out with a PAN PAN message which means 'Man Over Board' and only later with 'Mayday' after they had sent out the PAN PAN. This was Helsinki Radio.
A: What's the name of this message?
T: PAN PAN. It is not as heavy as a 'Mayday' call. This is used when somebody has fallen overboard, for example, when there is no danger for the vessel itself.
A: So, this came from Helsinki Radio?
T: Yes, this came from Helsinki and subsequently I knew that they later also came out with a 'Mayday' relay which we did not hear ourselves, but EUROPA heard it.
A: All this has to be discussed in detail when you come to Stockholm.
T: Yes.
A: But I know from you already that in any event it had been very difficult to get in contact with the Rescues Services.
T: We had co-operated a lot with them and it was not the first time that we had to use the mobile phone.
A: Yes, and was it the same with Sweden, with Stockholm?
T: Yes, however, since we were on the Finnish side we should not alert Sweden unless there are particular circumstances, but as we did not know what had happened. The only thing we knew when we alerted the Rescue Services was that they had sent out a 'Mayday'. Then we had no idea what had happened and we still could see the ferry and could not imagine that such a catastrophe had happened.
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Transcript of interview with Criminal Inspector Lars-Erik Andersson, Stockholm 6 Oct 1994
 
Vixen said:
One is a satellite signal GPS (EPIRB) one is radio VHF.

The head of the Finnish Coastguard confirmed there was continous interference with Channel 16 coming from the Russian military base at Hogland and the Estonian government formally complained to Russia about it.

What makes you think your internet chat denial renders this void?
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One transmits on 406MHz and the other on 156.8MHz. They're not fundamentally different.
 
Vixen said:
In other words they were never placed in the capsules.
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Well, that's quite a pivot. You seem to have abandoned the approach of incredulity that manual EPIRBs were really once permitted and insisting they must have been automatic and now started a new one about a conspiracy where they were secretly removed before the sinking.
 
Vixen said:
One is a satellite signal GPS (EPIRB) one is radio VHF.

The head of the Finnish Coastguard confirmed there was continous interference with Channel 16 coming from the Russian military base at Hogland and the Estonian government formally complained to Russia about it.

What makes you think your internet chat denial renders this void?
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But the signal strength is just 5w. It is a radio signal on 406mhz. It can be blocked in the same way as any other radio signal.

As already explained VHF is short range, it was not blocked the Estonia distress transmission was picked up by a number of other ships in the area.
 
Vixen said:
Now you are employing sophistry without actually knowing.
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Sophistry? where?

Do you know what the word actually means?

The procedure is for a designated watchman to activate the buoys and throw them in to the sea if the ship is sinking. Automatic activation is a backup in case there is no opportunity to turn them on manually.

We know that the buoys on the Estonia were manual only. It was because of the Estonia sinking that automatic activation was made mandatory
 
Vixen said:
In other words they were never placed in the capsules.
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What is your evidence for this claim?

Where did you get that from?

They were in brackets, not 'capsules' like the vast majority still are. I even posted pictures for you.
 
Vixen said:
The Mayday message took about eight minutes to act upon. Why did Europa and Mariella need the location anyway, since they were right next to the Estonia.

Transcript of Captain Thornroos of Viking Mariella
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In that transcript the captain says after they heard the Mayday "they were shooting up emergency rockets". I'm not clear whether he means the Estonia said that over the radio or whether he saw these rockets. Do you know? If his ship had seen Estonia's distress rockets and was "right next" to it as you put it, would he not have changed course immediately toward the ship in distress? How far away is "right next to it"?
 
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Vixen said:
The Mayday message took about eight minutes to act upon. Why did Europa and Mariella need the location anyway, since they were right next to the Estonia.

Transcript of Captain Thornroos of Viking Mariella:

Transcript of interview with Criminal Inspector Lars-Erik Andersson, Stockholm 6 Oct 1994
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They were not right next to it, they were around 10 miles away, Estonia was below the horizon for them and it was dark
They had no idea as to the direction of the message, without a location they would have had no idea as to the location of the Estonia other than it was in a box of many hundreds of square miles centered on the Europa.

I suggest you find out how radio works.
 
Jack by the hedge said:
In that transcript the captain says after they heard the Mayday "they were shooting up emergency rockets". I'm not clear whether he means the Estonia said that over the radio or whether he saw these rockets. Do you know? If his ship had seen Estonia's distress rockets and was "right next" to it as you put it, would he not have changed course immediately toward the ship in distress? How far away is "right next to it"?
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A red parachute or rocket flare has a visual range of around 10 nautical miles in daylight and 40 at night.
They launch to a height of around 300m if fired vertically.

In strong winds they should be launched at 45 degrees and visual ranges can be reduced to 5 and 20 nm.

Solas requirements for offshore vessels are at minimum, 2 Orange buoyant Lifesmokes, 6 Red Hand flares and 4 Parachute Red Rockets.
 
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