Discussion: Transwomen are not women (Part 7)

[d4m10n]

It's not clear what, if any, role gender identity played in this case.

I think it's fair to say the assailant was at least gender non-conforming, given the skirt. The relevant policy question doesn't hinge on his personal sense of self, however, but on whether it's a generally a good idea to (dis)empower females who might well challenge males when they enter into certain spaces.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

I think it's fair to say the assailant was at least gender non-conforming, given the skirt. The relevant policy question doesn't hinge on his personal sense of self, however, but on whether it's a generally good idea to (dis)empower females who might well challenge males when they enter into certain spaces.

Considering schools generally don't like it when students use bathroom stalls as locations for sexual encounters, it's probably safe to speculate that they were entering these places in secret.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

The porn actor, Lily Cade, who was quoted in the piece in the BBC about being a victim of aggressive trans women was herself accused of multiple sexual assaults of other women, notably inside women's restrooms.

https://twitter.com/christapeterso/status/1453149042125332480

Curious when the BBC will be running a story about her victims and whether or not cis women should have civil rights.

 

[d4m10n]

Considering schools generally don't like it when students use bathroom stalls as locations for sexual encounters, it's probably safe to speculate that they were entering these places in secret.

Why? If the ethos of our times is that a boy in a skirt can enter whichever restroom he pleases, then he can stride in boldly and pick out a stall at his leisure.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

Why? If the ethos of our times is that a boy in a skirt can enter whichever restroom he pleases, then he can stride in boldly and pick out a stall at his leisure.

Might be a bit obvious when two people walk into the same stall

 

[Ziggurat]

Might be a bit obvious when two people walk into the same stall

School administrators don't tend to hang out in the bathroom. It's much easier to notice which bathroom someone enters than which stall they enter.

 

[d4m10n]

On Monday, the teenage victim of the Stone Bridge assault testified that she and her attacker had agreed to meet up in a school bathroom around 12:15 p.m.

From the WaPo piece linked above (emphasis mine) we can conclude that they met in the bathroom. Possibly they communicated about which stall to be in using some sort of telephony.

 

[Emily's Cat]

For all the scaremongering this article did, not a single piece of credible evidence to show how extensive this problem actually is.

How many lesbians need to be subjected to coercion and harassment by male people insisting that they should be receptive to their penises for you to consider it "extensive"?

What's your threshold for the acceptable level of males intimidating lesbians into submitting to their sexual desires against their will?

 

[Emily's Cat]

Suggesting introspection is not the same as badgering people for sex.

"Well, I know you are a gay male, but I think you need to really give some serious thought to why you don't want to have sex with vagina-havers. I mean, it's really important that you think about where your genital prejudice comes from"

Yeah, that really sounds like progress right there.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

How many lesbians need to be subjected to coercion and harassment by male people insisting that they should be receptive to their penises for you to consider it "extensive"?

What's your threshold for the acceptable level of males intimidating lesbians into submitting to their sexual desires against their will?

You've convinced me, one incident is too many.

Racial segregation until we get this "black crime" thing under control.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

"Well, I know you are a gay male.

News to me. I'll probably have to make some changes to my life. Thanks for the heads up, I didn't even have a suspicion!

 

[Emily's Cat]

No, the next step is to label any lesbian a bigot if she doesn't accede to the initial offer of a liaison. The point of the badgering isn't to get sex, it's to make it socially unacceptable to say no. Lesbians will be able to keep their sexual preference, but only at the cost becoming pariah.

One of my cousins is now re-closeted, because their unwillingness to accept dick into their vijajay got them harassed.

Progress!

 

[Emily's Cat]

It seems that some people skipped right past that part.

How can this be "pressure" to date trans women?

As to the second part, "it's worth considering how societal prejudices may have shaped your attractions", that would run counter to the idea that gays and lesbians were "born this way". Surely they aren't suggesting that sexuality is a lifestyle choice, are they? That you can choose who to be attracted to? Nah, that can't be what they're saying, can it?

Nobody skipped that part, it's just that the second part invalidates it.

"Well, nobody should be forced to date anyone they don't want to, but if you're a lesbian that rejects an entire class of people just because they have penises, you should probably think about why you're so prejudiced against penises" is only a coat of paint away from conversion therapy.

 

[Olmstead]

Suggesting introspection is not the same as badgering people for sex.

A person that found all black people to be sexually repugnant might be well advised to examine that impulse. A black person demanding a sexual relationship would still be a massive overstep and gross.

A lesbian that found all men to be sexually repugnant might be well advised to examine that impulse.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

A lesbian that found all men to be sexually repugnant might be well advised to examine that impulse.

Sure, why not? I imagine the conclusion would be the obvious, but there's really no harm to thinking about it.

 

[Emily's Cat]

Michelle Goldberg
had an interesting column recently that suggested the NYT might allow some essays critical of gender ideology.
At issue was the ACLU's recent quoting of the late justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg
The decision whether or not to bear a child is central to a woman’s life, to her well-being and dignity. It is a decision she must make for herself. When government controls that decision for her, she is being treated as less than a fully adult human responsible for her own choices,”

Except the ACLU censored the word woman. :-|
Goldberg puts forward the case that they got it wrong: You can’t change the nature of reality through language alone. Trying to do so can seem, to employ a horribly overused word, like a form of gaslighting.

More interesting to me were the comments- particularly the readers picks (rather than the NYT staff), which further reveal that a lot of women across the political spectrum are upset by gender ideology - but often afraid to speak up about it. Many of them have picked up on the anti-female bias that seems (to many of us) to be baked into the movement.

The majority of females who are aware that this is happening do NOT approve, and object fairly loudly. It's apparent in the responses to several things over the past couple of years being overwhelmingly negative from females.

Midol has a series of ads referring to females as "menstruators", and the response was overwhelmingly negative from females.

Always removed the female symbol from their branding to be more inclusive of people who don't identify as women, and was met with overwhelming negativity from females.

The Lancet featured a front-page blurb referring to "bodies with vaginas", and the response of females was quite resoundingly outraged.

Females ARE unhappy with this, and DO object. But we are being ignored, being called bigots and transphobes and terfs, being silenced. Females are not being listened to on this topic.

 

[Emily's Cat]

Straight men will as well - though it may be more subtle if gender ideology becomes more accepted. As surgeries get better, you will likely have more of them willing to have sex with TW, but when it comes time to settle down, there will always be a preference for females - for what I would think would be stunningly obvious reasons.

*IF* the current ideological basis changes to expect and encourage genital surgery, sure, I could see that happening.

The objection is really not to transgender or transsexual people as a whole.

The objection is to people who are unambiguously and obviously of one sex demanding that other people should ignore their sex and their genitalia and pretend that those organs don't matter. The objection is to the current narrative that a person should be accepted and treated as the sex with which they identify and that there should be no expectation that they undergo any alterations at all.

The objection is to the frankly absurd notion that a male-bodied, male appearing, beard-wearing person should be completely accepted (including in romantic and sexual interactions) as a "masculine lesbian" rather than as the completely straight transvestite that they actually are.

 

[Emily's Cat]

You've convinced me, one incident is too many.

Racial segregation until we get this "black crime" thing under control.

You're asserting that lesbians not wanting to have sex with dicks are just as bad as racists. Seriously, you're arguing that homosexuals are as bad as racists for not wanting to have heterosexual sexual relationships.

 

[Emily's Cat]

Sure, why not? I imagine the conclusion would be the obvious, but there's really no harm to thinking about it.

Do you "advise" heterosexual people to examine the prejudices behind their sexual orientation?

Do you "advise" transwomen who consider themselves lesbians to examine the prejudices behind their sexual attraction to female-bodied people?

Why on earth do you think it's acceptable to "advise" female lesbians to examine their prejudices about why they don't want to affirm a transwoman's identity by being receptive to their dicks?

 

[Olmstead]

Sure, why not? I imagine the conclusion would be the obvious, but there's really no harm to thinking about it.

You can't be serious. There's a clear implied meaning in the statement, just as there was in your example.

Not that I think there's any point in chewing someone out for their racial preferences. If that person is racist, they have bigger problems to solve.

But it's ridiculous to see the sexual preference of straight or gay people as equivalent. Lesbians aren't simply misandrists.