Cont: The Sinking of MS Estonia: Case Re-opened Part III

[Jack by the hedge]

Is this from one of those English shows I've never heard of?

Probably. Depends how well you know 1950s British radio comedy. But not recognising Bluebottle's catchphrase hints you're not especially familiar with The Goon Show.

 

[Andy_Ross]

The bow visor was above the waterline, right?

So, how would explosions designed to cause bow visor failure be below the waterline?

If the natural failure of the bow visor couldn't explain the sinking, then neither could the intentional destruction of the bow visor -- unless it produced other substantial damage which would be current today.

Do have some consistency, Vixen. If you deny that the former explains a sinking, you must deny that the latter does too. Pretty simple logic.

There is a 'theory' that the Swedish Navy blew the bow visor off after the ship sank.

 

[Andy_Ross]

Is this from one of those English shows I've never heard of?

The Goons.

A Radio comedy show from the stem powered radio days.

Bluebottle was always being deaded. A character voiced by Peter Sellers.

Here's a song about some of the many ways he is deaded.

 

[erwinl]

6 to 7 I would guess.

Let's go with 7 then.
According to your list that would make the average wave height about 4 meters (13 ft).

And the ferry in your video is about twice the size as the Estonia was.

Hmmm. One could almost say it is thought provoking.

 

[Axxman300]

RoRo Ferry bow pitching in to the waves in a stiff sea.

You just sank her battleship.

Pretty much how I pictured it in my head. With the ramp open? Jesus, they never had a chance.

 

[Axxman300]

Don't forget, there is a vertical tear, as well as a horizontal one.

Pretty sure one of the expedition crews confirmed it goes down as far as the swimming pool area, which is Deck 0.

I love how you continue to post pictures of these hull ruptures. The seems of the hull plates are clear as day, and (at least to my untrained eye) screams stress fracture. And there are no indications of damage from explosives, so the question about their cause boils down to if the ruptures occurred on the surface after Estonia rolled on her side, or were caused impact with the sea floor, or long-term stress failure from her time on the bottom.

Those, in my mind, are the three unanswered questions as far as the starboard side goes.

 

[Andy_Ross]

You just sank her battleship.

Pretty much how I pictured it in my head. With the ramp open? Jesus, they never had a chance.

This one is somewhat spectacular when the ship turns in to the swell from about a minute in to the video

Also notice the effect of the wind on the trim of the ship.



This is what it is like aboard a ship when it gets rough.

Misattributed as the Shetland ferry but it's from P&O's Pacific Sun cruise liner off New Zealand.

Gets a bit fatiguing when you have been hove-to in conditions like this for a couple of days in an Atlantic storm aboard a Frigate.

 

[Mojo]

You have deaded me, you rotten swine!


ETA: That's right, sod your Hitchhiker's and Python references, I'm going old school!

You silly twisted boy.

 

[whoanellie]

Probably. Depends how well you know 1950s British radio comedy. But not recognising Bluebottle's catchphrase hints you're not especially familiar with The Goon Show.

A little bit before my time and wrong side of the pond.

 

[junkshop]

You silly twisted boy.

About my ten shillings...

 

[Spektator]

You silly twisted boy.

He's fallen in the water!

 

[Axxman300]

This one is somewhat spectacular when the ship turns in to the swell from about a minute in to the video

Also notice the effect of the wind on the trim of the ship.



This is what it is like aboard a ship when it gets rough.

Misattributed as the Shetland ferry but it's from P&O's Pacific Sun cruise liner off New Zealand.

Gets a bit fatiguing when you have been hove-to in conditions like this for a couple of days in an Atlantic storm aboard a Frigate.

The trim should be an obvious issue when discussing the capsizing of Estonia because she had a high-profile. Along with the list she had after leaving port she was well behind the eight-ball when the visor fell off.

Again, I'm not seeing a mystery here. I'm seeing two of Murphy's Laws in play:

Whatever can go wrong will go wrong.

The thing that goes wrong will be the most catastrophic.

The visor fell off in heavy seas, the captain and crew did nothing, and continued to sail at flank speed into the waves.

 

[junkshop]

He's fallen in the water!

Ladies and gentlemen, may I present your champion of champions!


Let's give him a big hand, folks. Didn't he do well?

 

[Vixen]

RoRo Ferry bow pitching in to the waves in a stiff sea.

At the same time cargo/car ferry ships are designed to carry a maximum draft, and thus a low plimsoll line (=nearer sea level) exactly to minimise rolling (= and/or pitching).

The issue here isn't to do with pitching.

 

[Vixen]

RoRo Ferry pitching in to a stiff sea



Frigate pitching as it forces in to a head sea.

One good thing came out of that, my Shazam identified the music as 'Pioneer' by Split Enz. (Sounds like a hairdressers' pun <shudder>)

 

[Andy_Ross]

At the same time cargo/car ferry ships are designed to carry a maximum draft, and thus a low plimsoll line (=nearer sea level) exactly to minimise rolling (= and/or pitching).

The issue here isn't to do with pitching.

What issue isn't to do with pitching?
You can see the bow completely buries up to the foredeck level.
Pitching is to do with the length and speed of the ship, height and pitch of the waves and the distribution of buoyancy in the ship.

 

[Vixen]

And, once again, the official report on the Herald of Free Enterprise says if it had not grounded it would have sunk entirely. This official view may well be contrary to your personal wot-I-reckon but you don't get to call anyone a liar for not adopting your utterly inexpert opinion as fact here.

It certainly would have entirely sank eventually as the air in the superstructure was replaced by water seeping in. As with the MS Jan Heweliusz it surely would have floated turtle after capsizing for quite a while in open sea. The issue with the Estonia is how suddenly it sank completely. As a comparator, the Wilhelm Gustloff took circa 45 minutes and the Titanic over two hours.

 

[Andy_Ross]

It certainly would have entirely sank eventually as the air in the superstructure was replaced by water seeping in. As with the MS Jan Heweliusz it surely would have floated turtle after capsizing for quite a while in open sea. The issue with the Estonia is how suddenly it sank completely. As a comparator, the Wilhelm Gustloff took circa 45 minutes and the Titanic over two hours.

Why Would the HOFE have turned right over and floated upside down?

You keep posting this but never tell us why.

 

[Vixen]

You are once again conflating decks 4 & 5 with the car deck. The JAIC did not, as you falsely claimed, have to assume the doors on the car deck were compromised.

Soz, the car decks are decks no. 2 and 3. In effect, the JAIC is claiming that when the vessel capsized onto its starboard side, decks 4 and 5 immediately filled with water, the windows having smashed, battened down the cabin doors (cabins themselves divided into literally hundreds). This defies belief as a ship cannot float on its superstructure. Once it capsized to the side, it would have turtled within minutes ceteris paribus.

 

[JayUtah]

The issue with the Estonia is how suddenly it sank completely. As a comparator, the Wilhelm Gustloff took circa 45 minutes and the Titanic over two hours.

And the key issue in all of that is the flood rate, which you imply could be achieved in Estonia by the hole on the starboard side. Physics has an answer as to whether that's credible. Do you know the answer?