The Jan. 6 Investigation

[Lurch]

False equivalency award winner, imo. We expect, especially after the summer of 2020, for law enforcement to use deadly force as a last resort. They are supposed to be trained to act accordingly. And generally, if they very clearly and publicly don't, we take them to task...except, oddly, in the case of Ashli Babbit.

What triggers the "last resort" option? When the mob has got through the doors? When the mob begins beating the police? When the mob wrests weapons from the police? When the mob has overcome the police, and are proceeding toward the folks depending on the police?

When a braying mob have already created a breach through which one of their number is commencing to push, after warnings have already been given to those of the mob who can see one or more weapons pointed their way, and clearly not being intimidated (white privilege clouding judgement?), how long do you propose that the last line of defense should wait before employing deadly force?

Already there were scores of injured police outside. Babbitt and Co. were facing the last few.

It's like a homeowner whose hired security has been overcome in the driveway, and the home invaders are now trying to break through the door. Even before a crack is made in that barrier, the homeowner is justified in shooting through the door, without seeing anyone. If that scenario is deemed a righteous instance of self defense, then this one certainly is.

 

[Lurch]

Yeah, when you watch the video, no other option but to smoke this unarmed lady. LOL. Insane.

An easy pose to strike by Monday morning quarterbacks long after the dust has settled.

If it was you charged with the responsibility to protect others while a mob was a few feet away busting through the last barricade, do you think you'd be so chill as you would impose upon others?

 

[Craig4]

The last resort option is a myth. You are supposed to use the minimum amount of force to stop the threat. That goes from simply being present and giving verbal commands to deadly force. Further, deadly force is authorized when the officer has reasonable belief he or someone else is danger of serious bodily harm or death. Disparity of force is grounds for forming a reasonable belief of death or serious bodily harm (I so hate states that use "fear of" instead of "reasonable belief of).

Many agencies also allow or even direct deadly force to be used to protect people, places or things vital to the national security. I assume but I don't know for sure that the CP has such a policy for protecting the members. It is inconceivable that they wouldn't have such a policy for at least the majority and minority leadership, The Gang of Eight and President Pro-Tem of the Senate.

 

[Stacyhs]

For the record, as someone who was once a commissioned federal officer, there is no agency in the federal government that authorizes warning shots. It is not trained at FLETC and there are specific regulations against them. If you discharge your weapon, it will be at the center of mass of the available target. If you believe or determine the person is wearing body armor, you are to take a CNS or Central Nervous System shot aiming at roughly the nose of the person.

Thanks for that clarification, but I think it would have been better directed at Warp12's post who is claiming that Lt. Byrd had other options including a warning shot.

 

[Craig4]

Thanks for that clarification, but I think it would have been better directed at Warp12's post who is claiming that Lt. Byrd had other options including a warning shot.

If you'll forgive the expression, I was trying to provide supporting fires.

 

[Stacyhs]

If you'll forgive the expression, I was trying to provide supporting fires.

Oh, I understand that and appreciate it!

 

[a_unique_person]

Were there any other options besides deadly force? Seems obvious that there were.

As I say, I am not siding with the "report"...but I am opening my eyes to the simple fact that there were other alternatives to deadly force, certainly.

Deadly force should be the last choice for an officer, not the first. Or do you disagree?

They had not used deadly force for hours. This last charge for the politicians themselves was not negotiable.

 

[abaddon]

A warning shot? Just firing off a round in any direction? Yeah, that's it.

Ah. The mythical Hollywood made "warning shot". I wonder why people think TV is real.

 

[sackett]

For the record, as someone who was once a commissioned federal officer, there is no agency in the federal government that authorizes warning shots. It is not trained at FLETC and there are specific regulations against them. If you discharge your weapon, it will be at the center of mass of the available target. If you believe or determine the person is wearing body armor, you are to take a CNS or Central Nervous System shot aiming at roughly the nose of the person.

How much emphasis did your training put on awareness of the target's background? I ask because at that close range a 9x19 para bullet, full jacketed I assume, would bat right through any part of the crazy old bag, and at least a couple more crazies, easily. Sounds like Byrd did a good and careful job. I hope I could be that surgical. Warp hopes so too.

 

[acbytesla]

For the record, as someone who was once a commissioned federal officer, there is no agency in the federal government that authorizes warning shots. It is not trained at FLETC and there are specific regulations against them. If you discharge your weapon, it will be at the center of mass of the available target. If you believe or determine the person is wearing body armor, you are to take a CNS or Central Nervous System shot aiming at roughly the nose of the person.

They had not used deadly force for hours. This last charge for the politicians themselves was not negotiable.

My best friend is a Seattle Police Officer. He's actually been an FTO or field training officer for more than a decade. His job is to train new recruits that have completed the State Law Enforcement Accademy training classes.

He has repeated this exact same directive to me at least a hundred times. All officers that discharge their weapons are trained to aim at center mass.

The reason? Many even highly proficient individuals are poor shots when they are firing at human beings. Second reason is that even people that have bullet wounds may not stop.
Firing to wound is against statewide policy.

 

[The Great Zaganza]

Don't hate the player, hate the game.

I can do both, no problem.
Especially if it's a player who treats democracy and rule of law as a game

 

[theprestige]

In before that one time that one of police sniper, with a stationary target, no imminent threat, and plenty of time to settle in, made that one trick shot to disarm without killing.

 

[Craig4]

How much emphasis did your training put on awareness of the target's background? I ask because at that close range a 9x19 para bullet, full jacketed I assume, would bat right through any part of the crazy old bag, and at least a couple more crazies, easily. Sounds like Byrd did a good and careful job. I hope I could be that surgical. Warp hopes so too.

When you do the simulator, there's a lot of emphasis on what's behind your target and where your shots went. I don't know what the CP carry but our ammunition was .40 Cal with hollow point. A large slower round that is less likely to go through someone.

 

[Craig4]

My best friend is a Seattle Police Officer. He's actually been an FTO or field training officer for more than a decade. His job is to train new recruits that have completed the State Law Enforcement Accademy training classes.

He has repeated this exact same directive to me at least a hundred times. All officers that discharge their weapons are trained to aim at center mass.

The reason? Many even highly proficient individuals are poor shots when they are firing at human beings. Second reason is that even people that have bullet wounds may not stop.
Firing to wound is against statewide policy.

Oh god yeah. Your marksmanship goes way down in the simulator when you're going through the scenario.

 

[carlitos]

I'm still waiting for Warp12 to describe an alternative course of action which would not have risked at least a few rioters getting past the two officers who were all that stood between a large armed mob and the people they were sworn to protect. Reasons why firing a warning shot and physically tackling the first couple of rioters through the window were too risky have already been given.

Aren't we all.

You didn't answer the question because:

1. You don't know?
2. You are too cowardly to state your point of view clearly?
3. ___________?

 

[sackett]

Warp and me are relieved

When you do the simulator, there's a lot of emphasis on what's behind your target and where your shots went. I don't know what the CP carry but our ammunition was .40 Cal with hollow point. A large slower round that is less likely to go through someone.

I don't know what the CP use either, I just speculated on an ammo choice that would make for problems. I hope that they long ago opted for something better; .40 S&W w/ hollow points is in wide use, of course. The perp in this case appears to have bled catastrophically, as if from a huge wound; but this topic is depressing, so satis est.

 

[plague311]

Uh oh, a Capitol officer got nabbed:

A US Capitol Police officer was indicted on obstruction charges in connection to the January 6 insurrection at the US Capitol.

According to the indictment, Michael A. Riley told a contact online to remove posts showing the person was in the Capitol building that day.
Riley was arrested Friday and is expected to make an initial court appearance at 1 p.m. ET.

You'd think they knew better.

ETA: Some of the messages:

"im a capitol police officer who agrees with your political stance, take down the part about being in the building they are currently investigating and everyone who was in the building is going to charged. Just looking out!"

"Im glad you got out of there unscathed We had over 50 officers hurt, some pretty bad"

 

[Stacyhs]

It's no secret that there are a lot of extreme right wingers in law enforcement. Riley is just one of many that need to be weeded out.

 

[Segnosaur]

And to no one's surprise:

From: Politico
Donald Trump is suing the Jan. 6 select committee and the National Archives to block the release of his White House’s records...The thrust of Trump's claim is twofold, arguing first that the Jan. 6 committee's request for documents is so broad as to be unconstitutional. Secondly, the suit asserts that the committee lacks a legitimate "legislative purpose" for pursuing the documents.

An obvious delaying tactic. Hopefully it gets taken care of by the courts fairly quickly. (The big risk of course is that if it gets to the supreme court, they may delay ruling on it for months.)

 

[smartcooky]

Agreed.

I doubt there will be any forthcoming descriptions of alternative actions that realistically take into account the seriousness of the situation at the time..

Of course not... because there aren't any!