Discussion: Transwomen are not women (Part 7)

[Emily's Cat]

What's that have to do with this case of a someone accused of multiple forcible rape?

Do you think these crimes would not have occurred with a different bathroom policy?

It is POSSIBLE that they could have occurred with a different bathroom policy, but they are LESS LIKELY to have occurred.

With a different policy, FEMALES would be assured that they have the right to challenge a male in the restroom and expect them to leave. And if that male does NOT leave, the FEMALES have the right to report them as being in the wrong bathroom and up to no good.

With your approach... females have ZERO recourse and ZERO protection. Your approach makes it EASIER for sexual predators to harm FEMALES.

This is fairly straightforward and easy to follow for those not steeped in doublethink.

 

[Emily's Cat]

I'm arguing that bathroom policy wouldn't have much impact on someone determined to commit forcible rape, as evidenced by the circumstances of the second alleged incident that had nothing to do with bathrooms.

Anecdotes aside, there is no data that shows that trans inclusion in bathrooms increases danger. Or has that changed? This is a skeptics forum after all, do you have data suggesting otherwise, or just rely on particularly nasty anecdotes?

Gee, let me just wait until enough female humans have been harmed because of an obvious gaping ******* loophole for the data to reach your level of sufficiency. How many rapes and assaults do you need in order to consider it "data" and not "nasty anecdotes"? I mean, we wouldn't want to let any "nasty anecdotes" about actual rapes be considered. It's not like those "nasty anecdotes" actually involve anyone being harmed. Well, not anyone that matters at least. I mean, they're just females, it's not like they're trans or something, right?

 

[d4m10n]

Sure, that male aggression must show up in the data after trans-inclusive policies were adopted, right?

Whenever data are gathered, we find human males are consistently more likely to be criminally sexually aggressive. What makes you believe this is untrue in bathrooms? [emoji700]

 

[Emily's Cat]

Neither.

DO you think policy should be made based on the most recent anecdote of horrible crime?

FFS YES! The entire ******* inclusion policy is based on anecdotes about how important it is to the feelings of trans people to be affirmed in their belief about their gender! The entire ideology is based on ******* anecdotes!

Why do you only feel entitled to dismiss things as unimportant "nasty" anecdotes when it is females who are harmed?

 

[TurkeysGhost]

FFS YES! The entire ******* inclusion policy is based on anecdotes about how important it is to the feelings of trans people to be affirmed in their belief about their gender! The entire ideology is based on ******* anecdotes!

Why do you only feel entitled to dismiss things as unimportant "nasty" anecdotes when it is females who are harmed?

There is more than anecdotes to show the damage done by trans exclusive policies, and I know for a fact that you are aware of them.

I'm sorry the data doesn't back up your prejudice, but we've had this same conversation far too many times for me to go through it again.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

Whenever data are gathered, we find human males are consistently more likely to be criminally sexually aggressive. What makes you believe this is untrue in bathrooms? [emoji700]

The data that shows that trans inclusive policies do not lead to an increase of violence in these spaces. I don't have to wonder, it's been measured.

Do you have anything to refute these findings, or are you just spitballing based on your prejudice?

 

[Emily's Cat]

Sure, that male aggression must show up in the data after trans-inclusive policies were adopted, right?



Whoops

https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s13178-018-0335-z

This is a skeptics forum, right? Put up the evidence.

Transgender identified males commit violent and sexual offenses at the same rate as other males.

Note that the first referenced study was of post-surgical, post-hormonal trans people. And even after that, MALES still offend at the same rate as MALES.

The second reference is to the results of an FOI request, which shows that TRANSWOMEN commit sexual crimes at a rate HIGHER than MALES.

 

[gnome]

It is POSSIBLE that they could have occurred with a different bathroom policy, but they are LESS LIKELY to have occurred.

When more details become available, that will be a lot easier to say. We'd have the opportunity to know specifically if the inclusive policy made the attacker's assault easier in that case, or if it was little different than a man barging in that wasn't supposed to be there.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

When more details become available, that will be a lot easier to say. We'd have the opportunity to know specifically if the inclusive policy made the attacker's assault easier in that case, or if it was little different than a man barging in that wasn't supposed to be there.

Considering the same person is accused of committing a very similar crime almost immediately after the first and didn't use a bathroom, seems this was not an important factor.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

Transgender identified males commit violent and sexual offenses at the same rate as other males.

Note that the first referenced study was of post-surgical, post-hormonal trans people. And even after that, MALES still offend at the same rate as MALES.

The second reference is to the results of an FOI request, which shows that TRANSWOMEN commit sexual crimes at a rate HIGHER than MALES.

CRTL+F bathroom

0 hits.

 

[Emily's Cat]

oooooo a mandatory benefit. aka the only type of benefit that is covered by insurance in this country. Spare me the spooky language.

One state has accepted that trans affirming care should be a covered medical service. Stop the presses! Take solace in the fact that trans affirming care remains out of reach for many.

How does trans people having access to medical care they want harm you or other cis women?

It raises the cost of care for everyone, which makes basic, medically necessary and routine care inaccessible for others.

ETA: There's probably no shortage of trans people that would happily join you in an effort to demand better medical care from our terrible health system, but you might not find that association personally acceptable.

Yes, yes, take a moment to be sure to insinuate that I'm an evil trans-hating bigot. Never mind that I'm not, never mind that my objection is to policies based on feelings, where those policies actually harm females or reduce the rights and freedoms of females. No no, that couldn't possibly be it. I'm just an evil person. And hey, females aren't really important anyway.

Transwomen are better at being women than females are, right?

 

[Emily's Cat]

Whenever data are gathered, we find human males are consistently more likely to be criminally sexually aggressive. What makes you believe this is untrue in bathrooms? [emoji700]

True Faith^(TM)

 

[TurkeysGhost]

It raises the cost of care for everyone, which makes basic, medically necessary and routine care inaccessible for others.



Yes, yes, take a moment to be sure to insinuate that I'm an evil trans-hating bigot. Never mind that I'm not, never mind that my objection is to policies based on feelings, where those policies actually harm females or reduce the rights and freedoms of females. No no, that couldn't possibly be it. I'm just an evil person. And hey, females aren't really important anyway.

Transwomen are better at being women than females are, right?

evil trans hating bigot is redundant. You can just say anti-trans bigot

Were you receiving this care prior to trans people getting trans affirming care? Trans acceptance is a relatively recent occurrence, did this cause an decrease in the medical care you were receiving?

Again, is there any real linkage between trans people getting medical care and you're poor treatment in our for-profit system, or is this just small-minded complaining that people you detest are getting something nice?

 

[Emily's Cat]

When more details become available, that will be a lot easier to say. We'd have the opportunity to know specifically if the inclusive policy made the attacker's assault easier in that case, or if it was little different than a man barging in that wasn't supposed to be there.

What's your minimum threshold for the number of females that need to be raped and assaulted for you to consider it a good study?

 

[Emily's Cat]

CRTL+F bathroom

0 hits.

Fine.

But I assume that since you've been give actual real data, you're now opposed to transgender identified males being placed in female prisons?

 

[TurkeysGhost]

What's your minimum threshold for the number of females that need to be raped and assaulted for you to consider it a good study?

One time an astronaut drove cross country to attack her ex's new romantic partner.

We should cancel the NASA program. How many NASA victims are necessary for you to consider it a good study?

Sure, it's not a statistical study, but it's an anecdote of very bad behavior, and clearly that's good enough for you.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

Fine.

But I assume that since you've been give actual real data, you're now opposed to transgender identified males being placed in female prisons?

Not gonna lie, didn't read your study.

Edited by zooterkin: 

<SNIP>
Edited for rule 0 and rule 12.

 

[Emily's Cat]

evil trans hating bigot is redundant. You can just say anti-trans bigot

I'm none of that.

Were you receiving this care prior to trans people getting trans affirming care? Trans acceptance is a relatively recent occurrence, did this cause an decrease in the medical care you were receiving?

Again, is there any real linkage between trans people getting medical care and you're poor treatment in our for-profit system, or is this just small-minded complaining that people you detest are getting something nice?

Ahh, yes, now I'm small minded.

Let's see if this gets through: the policies being put in place for transgender people are NOT equal rights, they are SPECIAL PRIVILEGES. The activists are demanding special entitlements that the rest of us do NOT get.

And in addition to those special entitlements being above and beyond what other people get, those special entitlement REDUCE the safety, dignity, and freedom of females. It reduces our ability to participate in the economy and in politics. It reduces recognition of accomplishments by females.

And it masks and obscures the level of violence experiences by females on the basis of them being female, and furthermore attributes atrocious crimes committed by males to "women".

 

[TurkeysGhost]

I'm none of that.



Ahh, yes, now I'm small minded.

Let's see if this gets through: the policies being put in place for transgender people are NOT equal rights, they are SPECIAL PRIVILEGES. The activists are demanding special entitlements that the rest of us do NOT get.

And in addition to those special entitlements being above and beyond what other people get, those special entitlement REDUCE the safety, dignity, and freedom of females. It reduces our ability to participate in the economy and in politics. It reduces recognition of accomplishments by females.

And it masks and obscures the level of violence experiences by females on the basis of them being female, and furthermore attributes atrocious crimes committed by males to "women".

If you wanted trans affirming care, you could get it just as easily.

Reminds me of the anti gay marriage defense. See, gays were demanding a special privilege to marry another person of the same sex. Heteros didn't have this right, nor did they want it. They were inventing new rights!

These arguments have not aged well, for the obvious reasons.

 

[Emily's Cat]

One time an astronaut drove cross country to attack her ex's new romantic partner.

We should cancel the NASA program. How many NASA victims are necessary for you to consider it a good study?

Sure, it's not a statistical study, but it's an anecdote of very bad behavior, and clearly that's good enough for you.

Got it. There is no number high enough. Any number will be hand-waved away as irrelevant.