The Sinking of MS Estonia: Case Re-opened Part II

[Vixen]

I'm probably going to regret this, but here goes:

Vixen, how is any of the highlighted in any way relevant to this conversation?

You can keep up by clicking on the arrows going back.

 

[Andy_Ross]

That is not a Viking ship. It is a modern sailing dinghy with lots of built in buoyancy.

Is that the best you can do?

How to sail a Viking Ship with Atun-Shei

 

[Andy_Ross]

Obviously in Viking times there were no body cameras or people filming but this compilation should give you a feel for how the boat just turns over but doesn't sink.

What has any of that got to do with an open Viking Ship?

 

[LondonJohn]

Oh dear.

I mean, you've very clearly done simply a Google or YouTube search for "turned turtle", haven't you?

But unfortunately, you don't possess the critical acumen required to know what you're looking at - specifically to know whether the example you've found bears any reasonable level of resemblance to the matter under discussion.

In this instance, it bears no resemblance at all. A plastic/fibreglass dinghy with sealed air ballast chambers is a completely different kettle of fish from a large steel ship.

Is this really the best you can do?

 

[LondonJohn]

Obviously in Viking times there were no body cameras or people filming but this compilation should give you a feel for how the boat just turns over but doesn't sink.

Once again: the boats (not ships, which is the first reason why your attempt here fails) are either of fibreglass design with buoyancy chambers, or they're rigid inflatable boats (RIBs) which, uhm, rather visibly have huge sealed air chambers (the clue is also in their name...).

You don't have a clue about any of this, do you?

 

[Vixen]

Why do you think the captain had the opportunity or time to steer towards 'shallow water'?
Where was the nearest 'shallow water'? What do you think would happen to s hip in 'shallow water' in a storm?

How strong do you think a rope is compared to the weight and force of the bow visor moving?

Why do you think the visor was not free to move and is secure in it's position on the wreck?

If the wreck has moved, what do you think that might have done to the position of the bow visor?

Do you think that there are only windows on a couple of doors on the car deck?

What about the dozens of other windows on the ship? What about the air vents and intakes for air conditioning, engines and generators?

What about other access doors?

The four captains of Wilhelm Gustloff did this when they realised they had been hit. They steered towards Stolpe Bank. The captain of Herald of Free Enterprise steered it to a shallow bank, thus saving the ship from sinking completely. This is standard safety tactics. Turn back to port or make for the nearest shallow bank. A big puzzle re Estonia is that the Captain seemed absent or out of control of the ship as it carried on full speed towards deep waters before the engines seized and then it was steered, or turned naturally towards port, by which time it was too late.


The theory of the ramp door being ripped open is dependent on the assumption it was locked by its internal eight locks and thus 'must have come open' by the action of the bow visor rising up 1.4m - although the JAIC does not explain how it did this - and pulling down the structure nesting the ramp framework. However, there is good evidence the car ramp was rarely fully locked as the lugs did not align so the crew just tied it with a hawser to the fo'c'sle deck capstan. This is as related by various witnesses.

If the bow visor forepeak, being held down by gravity, is ipso facto lower down than the bottom of the car ramp how the heck does it manage to deform the car ramp stiffeners? Especially when Professor Westermann said there was no sign of contact deformation - and she examined the forepeak of the bow visor.

The bow visor was found 1,000m away from the wreck so whether it moved with the wreck or not is neither here nor there.

The JAIC relies on the ship floating on its superstructure, even though the windows are supposedly smashed. It just doesn't happen like that.

 

[junkshop]

Leg-pulling (or something darker) explains it better.

I was in the process of composing a response to this, and in defence of Vixen, arguing that she wasn't deliberately trolling in this thread, but that she genuinely believed the arguments she was presenting were true and/or realistic, and was honestly (albeit erroneously) defending her position.

Given her last few posts, however, I can no longer justify that optimistic view.

 

[Vixen]

Oh dear.

I mean, you've very clearly done simply a Google or YouTube search for "turned turtle", haven't you?

But unfortunately, you don't possess the critical acumen required to know what you're looking at - specifically to know whether the example you've found bears any reasonable level of resemblance to the matter under discussion.

In this instance, it bears no resemblance at all. A plastic/fibreglass dinghy with sealed air ballast chambers is a completely different kettle of fish from a large steel ship.

Is this really the best you can do?

The Vikings had large steel ships? Maybe you don't possess the critical acumen required.

 

[Vixen]

Once again: the boats (not ships, which is the first reason why your attempt here fails) are either of fibreglass design with buoyancy chambers, or they're rigid inflatable boats (RIBs) which, uhm, rather visibly have huge sealed air chambers (the clue is also in their name...).

You don't have a clue about any of this, do you?

Sorry, are you claiming the Vikings knew nothing about buoyancy?

I strongly advise you to take a good look at the longboat design and then come back and say they knew nothing about buoyancy.

 

[Andy_Ross]

The Vikings had large steel ships? Maybe you don't possess the critical acumen required.

Vikings had open boats. If they filled with water they sank. What is hard to understand?

 

[JayUtah]

Especially when Professor Westermann said there was no sign of contact deformation - and she examined the forepeak of the bow visor.

No.

Prof. Westermann said there was no contact deformation on the three small pieces on which she performed microscopic metallurgical analysis. She did not say there was no contact deformation anywhere on the bow visor.

It just doesn't happen like that.

Says who?

 

[Kid Eager]

Sorry, are you claiming the Vikings knew nothing about buoyancy?

I strongly advise you to take a good look at the longboat design and then come back and say they knew nothing about buoyancy.

Are you claiming that's what he claimed? I strongly suggest you re-read his post.

 

[JayUtah]

Sorry, are you claiming the Vikings knew nothing about buoyancy?

I strongly advise you to take a good look at the longboat design and then come back and say they knew nothing about buoyancy.

The most well-known thing the Vikings knew about buoyancy is that they had to constantly bail their boats, because if they didn't they would sink.

 

[junkshop]

You can keep up by clicking on the arrows going back.

I think that I have amply demonstrated, in this thread alone, that I am well aware of, and able to do, this.

Now, would you care to actually answer my question?





ETA: Now that I come to think of it, that's kind of my thing¹, probably to the annoyance of those who wish to move on with the conversation. You would be hard pressed to come up with a worse thing to condescend to me over.


¹Well, that and excessive footnotes^2
2And edits to correct my spelling/grammar, add observations that occurred to me on reflection, a tendency toward somewhat purple prose, and so on and so forth.

 

[Kid Eager]

The four captains of Wilhelm Gustloff did this when they realised they had been hit. They steered towards Stolpe Bank. The captain of Herald of Free Enterprise steered it to a shallow bank, thus saving the ship from sinking completely. This is standard safety tactics. Turn back to port or make for the nearest shallow bank. A big puzzle re Estonia is that the Captain seemed absent or out of control of the ship as it carried on full speed towards deep waters before the engines seized and then it was steered, or turned naturally towards port, by which time it was too late.


The theory of the ramp door being ripped open is dependent on the assumption it was locked by its internal eight locks and thus 'must have come open' by the action of the bow visor rising up 1.4m - although the JAIC does not explain how it did this - and pulling down the structure nesting the ramp framework. However, there is good evidence the car ramp was rarely fully locked as the lugs did not align so the crew just tied it with a hawser to the fo'c'sle deck capstan. This is as related by various witnesses.

If the bow visor forepeak, being held down by gravity, is ipso facto lower down than the bottom of the car ramp how the heck does it manage to deform the car ramp stiffeners? Especially when Professor Westermann said there was no sign of contact deformation - and she examined the forepeak of the bow visor.

The bow visor was found 1,000m away from the wreck so whether it moved with the wreck or not is neither here nor there.

The JAIC relies on the ship floating on its superstructure, even though the windows are supposedly smashed. It just doesn't happen like that.

Where is the nearest shallow water to where the MS Estonia sank?

 

[Andy_Ross]

The four captains of Wilhelm Gustloff did this when they realised they had been hit. They steered towards Stolpe Bank. The captain of Herald of Free Enterprise steered it to a shallow bank, thus saving the ship from sinking completely. This is standard safety tactics. Turn back to port or make for the nearest shallow bank. A big puzzle re Estonia is that the Captain seemed absent or out of control of the ship as it carried on full speed towards deep waters before the engines seized and then it was steered, or turned naturally towards port, by which time it was too late.

How fast was the ship sinking? what was the weather? how far away was shallow water?

HOF was already in shallow and calm water.

Look where Estonia sank, look at the conditions, look at how much notice the bridge crew had that there was a problem.
They did not realise there was a problem until the ship was sinking and listing badly to starboard. It lost power and they had no control.
If it had gone in to water shallow enough to beach in a storm it would have been pounded to bits on the shore.

When the engines failed it would have swung broadside on to the sea, any boat or ship with no power turns broadside to the waves.

 

[Vixen]

No.

Prof. Westermann said there was no contact deformation on the three small pieces on which she performed microscopic metallurgical analysis. She did not say there was no contact deformation anywhere on the bow visor.



Says who?

The attached diagram shows exactly what Professor Westermann examined.

 

[Andy_Ross]

Sorry, are you claiming the Vikings knew nothing about buoyancy?

I strongly advise you to take a good look at the longboat design and then come back and say they knew nothing about buoyancy.

Where is there any sealed buoyancy chamber on a Viking ship?
What would keep it afloat if it filled with water?
It has no positive buoyancy in the structure. It has iron and bronze components and fastenings, it has weapons and armour, food and other provisions and ballast stones in the bilges.

If it fills up it sinks.

 

[Vixen]

The most well-known thing the Vikings knew about buoyancy is that they had to constantly bail their boats, because if they didn't they would sink.

Oh please. Anyone who owns a rowing boat knows a bit of water in the boat is normal. These Vikings were master boat builders and sailors. Sure, it may have taken five hundred years to perfect their skill but perfect, they did.

 

[Andy_Ross]

Oh please. Anyone who owns a rowing boat knows a bit of water in the boat is normal. These Vikings were master boat builders and sailors. Sure, it may have taken five hundred years to perfect their skill but perfect, they did.

How does that stop the boat sinking if it fills with water?
Why do you think the Vikings avoided sailing in rough weather?