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The Sinking of MS Estonia: Case Re-opened Part II

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Axxman300 said:
1. They have not accounted for all the inner hatches of the car deck being sealed.

2. Sealed and closed are two different things.

3. Nobody can say when these doors were closed. This will take a dive team physically opening the door to see if they'd been dogged from the other side.

The visor WAS the cause of the sinking.



I'm no expert but I think large ships are designed to keep water out.



Has nothing to do with Estonia's sinking whatsoever. Please stop.



It was listing to the starboard side as soon as she left port. I think they would have noticed any holes in the hull.

And like the hatches, nobody can officially state when those holes were made in the hull, but unofficially there are no reports of a hull breach on the night of the disaster. None, zero, nada.



Weird, almost as if there are strong currents at that depth combined with the fact the wreck lies on a slope. Makes a sane person wonder what that kind of combined stress from gravity, salt water exposure, strong currents, water pressure, and the passage of 27 years has placed on the hull of the wreck, and what the resulting damage might be...*strokes chin*...
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[Raises Hand] "3 inch rebar on 4 foot centers?"
 
Axxman300 said:
1. They have not accounted for all the inner hatches of the car deck being sealed.

2. Sealed and closed are two different things.

3. Nobody can say when these doors were closed. This will take a dive team physically opening the door to see if they'd been dogged from the other side.

The visor WAS the cause of the sinking.



I'm no expert but I think large ships are designed to keep water out.



Has nothing to do with Estonia's sinking whatsoever. Please stop.



It was listing to the starboard side as soon as she left port. I think they would have noticed any holes in the hull.

And like the hatches, nobody can officially state when those holes were made in the hull, but unofficially there are no reports of a hull breach on the night of the disaster. None, zero, nada.



Weird, almost as if there are strong currents at that depth combined with the fact the wreck lies on a slope. Makes a sane person wonder what that kind of combined stress from gravity, salt water exposure, strong currents, water pressure, and the passage of 27 years has placed on the hull of the wreck, and what the resulting damage might be...*strokes chin*...
Click to expand...

The doors don't mean anything, the main flooding route would be the air intakes for the engines, generators, ventilation of the machinery spaces and the air conditioning plant.
 
Jack by the hedge said:
I actually reached down my copy of Elementz of Materials Science & Engineering, flipped through the sections on multiphase materials then put it back. First time I opened it since I guess 1985.
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Holy crap, Jack by the hedge, just looked over at my reference library, I’ve got that. I knew it sounded familiar but it has just been so long. Elements of Materials science & Engineering; Van Vlack, Fourth Edition November 1980 third printing. Copyrights go back to 1959. Chapter 9 Mulitphase Materials: Equailibria. In 9-2 Phase Diagrams (equilibrium diagrams) page 359 shows the transition from just ferrite (iron) to 75% austenite at 728 C or 1342 F. Chapter 10 is Mulitphase Materials: Microstructures. Wow, it has just been so long, I've been out of mechanical engineering for almost 20 years now. Nice to know that some of the old brain cells still fire up.
 
Vixen said:
You said you hated yourself for watching the Fokus Group presentation. I commented maybe you hated the idea of loved ones interested in finding out what happened.

Note the word 'maybe'.
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And importantly also note the lack of the word "idea".

Vixen said:
Maybe you really hate the survivors families as these are the people looking for the answers. Why would you mock their need to know?
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So, no, you didn't suggest junkshop hated the idea of anything. You suggested they hated the families. That is what you wrote.
 
The Man said:
Holy crap, Jack by the hedge, just looked over at my reference library, I’ve got that. I knew it sounded familiar but it has just been so long. Elements of Materials science & Engineering; Van Vlack, Fourth Edition November 1980 third printing. Copyrights go back to 1959. Chapter 9 Mulitphase Materials: Equailibria. In 9-2 Phase Diagrams (equilibrium diagrams) page 359 shows the transition from just ferrite (iron) to 75% austenite at 728 C or 1342 F. Chapter 10 is Mulitphase Materials: Microstructures. Wow, it has just been so long, I've been out of mechanical engineering for almost 20 years now. Nice to know that some of the old brain cells still fire up.
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4th edition. Small world, eh? Wish I could say it's well-thumbed but alas it's pristine.
 
Captain_Swoop said:
The doors don't mean anything, the main flooding route would be the air intakes for the engines, generators, ventilation of the machinery spaces and the air conditioning plant.
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I love how Vixen believes - still - that there's a functional equivalence between a) a ship's hull being built to keep water out, and b) a ship's hull being a hermetically-sealed chamber of air (much like, say, a blown-up and tied-off balloon).

And come to think of it, Vixen really ought to know a little about Viking seafarers. If she does, then perhaps she might mull over the fact that pretty much all Viking longships had open decks. Their hulls were built to keep out the sea, sure - but if there was a storm and waves managed to breach the freeboard of the ship, that water was going to pool and collect down by the keel. And if a sufficient mass of water collected there, the ship would sink.
 
JayUtah said:
How many leaders of the Fokus group have training and experience in forensic engineering?





Do you know why Kent Horstedt went into politics?



Not all the ways in which the world can be changed would be considered strictly honest. Not all claims to want to improve the world are strictly altruistic. How closely have you scrutinized the apparent motives of the Fokus group?
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The are a quite a few engineers and naval architects involved. Your faith in the status quo is touching.
 
junkshop said:
OK, leaving aside for now your apparent inability to recognise a joke, and your 'novel' views on who is or isn't a Cockney, your 'maybe' is undermined by your follow-up question that assumes a definitive positive. Therefore my request stands:




Note the part I have, once again, italicised :)

ETA: I have bolded it too, in order to bludgeon any attempt at subtlety down to a non-specified poster's level of comprehesion.

Please note that if needed I can highlight it too. Would that help, non-specified poster?

1edited for clarity of meaning
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Imagine this was a thread about the Grenfell Fire and you describe a press conference arranged for the survivors and the victims' families. I come along sneering about how bloody boring it all was: you would consider me boorish and disrespectful, no?

The aim of the Fokus group is not to entertain you.
 
Vixen said:
Imagine this was a thread about the Grenfell Fire and you describe a press conference arranged for the survivors and the victims' families. I come along sneering about how bloody boring it all was: you would consider me boorish and disrespectful, no?

The aim of the Fokus group is not to entertain you.
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Would the press conference be claiming the tower was set alight by saboteurs or that a Russian aircraft had dropped incendiary bombs on it?
 
Axxman300 said:
1. They have not accounted for all the inner hatches of the car deck being sealed.

2. Sealed and closed are two different things.

3. Nobody can say when these doors were closed. This will take a dive team physically opening the door to see if they'd been dogged from the other side.

The visor WAS the cause of the sinking.



I'm no expert but I think large ships are designed to keep water out.



Has nothing to do with Estonia's sinking whatsoever. Please stop.



It was listing to the starboard side as soon as she left port. I think they would have noticed any holes in the hull.

And like the hatches, nobody can officially state when those holes were made in the hull, but unofficially there are no reports of a hull breach on the night of the disaster. None, zero, nada.



Weird, almost as if there are strong currents at that depth combined with the fact the wreck lies on a slope. Makes a sane person wonder what that kind of combined stress from gravity, salt water exposure, strong currents, water pressure, and the passage of 27 years has placed on the hull of the wreck, and what the resulting damage might be...*strokes chin*...
Click to expand...

What is it with you, Axxman300, that the Cult of the Bow Visor arouses such blind almost religious faith in you? The entire hypothesis is based on guesswork.

The vessel had a 0.5º list when it left port which is hardly alarming.
 
Vixen said:
What is it with you, Axxman300, that the Cult of the Bow Visor arouses such blind almost religious faith in you? The entire hypothesis is based on guesswork.

The vessel had a 0.5º list when it left port which is hardly alarming.
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It is not guesswork, we have been through it in great detail.

It had a list after correction attempts were made that greatly reduced reserve buoyancy.
 
Vixen said:
The are a quite a few engineers and naval architects involved.
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"Involved" doesn't mean in charge. Prof. Westermann was "involved," for example, but had only a limited role that was subsumed by the frontmen. Who is actually directing the work, writing the reports, and presenting them? Who are the people actually directing the investigation, and what is their experience and qualifications?

BTW, you mentioned that one of the Fokus group directors was a survivor and that another was the relative of a victim. In a real investigation, that would be a gigantic no-no.

Your faith in the status quo is touching.
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Questioning Theory A does not mean clinging to Theory B. Your faith in the straw man is nauseating.

I asked you whether you believe that the cause determined by the JAIC was the real cause of the sinking, and I asked for a simple yes-or-no answer. Can I get that now, please?
 
Vixen said:
It's a pity that none of these things were investigated then.
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Why would they need to be? when the car deck flooded and caused the ship to turn on it's side where do you think the water was going to go?
 
Vixen said:
The aim of the Fokus group is not to entertain you.
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Their heavy reliance on press conferences and other media suggest pandering to public attention is a big part of their intent. Most other forensic investigations do their work quietly and then present their findings only when all the research has been completed. Fokus instead trumpets conclusory headlines of the like, "Estonia's bow doors were blown off." Not entertainment per se, but you haven't convinced me they don't already have a desired outcome in mind and that what they're doing now isn't largely performative.
 
Vixen said:
Imagine this was a thread about the Grenfell Fire and you describe a press conference arranged for the survivors and the victims' families. I come along sneering about how bloody boring it all was: you would consider me boorish and disrespectful, no?

The aim of the Fokus group is not to entertain you.
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OK, it seems that I do have to break out the highlighter. Tell you what, I'll underline it too, maybe that will help:

junkshop said:
Please illustrate in what way I have mocked "the survivors families"
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