Discussion: Transwomen are not women (Part 7)

[Elaedith]

This guy is heading towards a very quick cancelling I fear.

I'm not sure. Morris has been a critic of the affirmation-only approach for some time, but his position has now been endorsed by the RANZCP after a lengthy consultation and review that started in 2019.

From the second page:
"This [has moved from]...a topic that could previously not be talked about freely to one that we can discuss more openly now. This is a big improvement. Previously, everyone thought it was all settled but it's not, certainly not from a medical angle he [Morris] states."

Most of the comments from medical professionals seem to be in favour and people would have been too scared to make such comments a year or so ago.

I think the tide is actually turning.

 

[LondonJohn]

I'm not sure. Morris has been a critic of the affirmation-only approach for some time, but his position has now been endorsed by the RANZCP after a lengthy consultation and review that started in 2019.

From the second page:
"This [has moved from]...a topic that could previously not be talked about freely to one that we can discuss more openly now. This is a big improvement. Previously, everyone thought it was all settled but it's not, certainly not from a medical angle he [Morris] states."

Most of the comments from medical professionals seem to be in favour and people would have been too scared to make such comments a year or so ago.

I think the tide is actually turning.

I think this article is focussed on countenancing a certain level of caution in treatment for transgender people - specifically with reference to 1) guarding against a known propensity to contagion, especially among adolescents, and 2) guarding against moving too fast (in terms of transition therapy/counselling, and medical & surgical intervention) wrt adolescents and young adults.

Personally speaking, I would fully endorse these objectives (and I'm certain that further sensible & appropriate modifications will be proposed and adopted as medics/scientists/legislators all evolve their understanding and the best way forward). And personally speaking, I would say that all of this constitutes nothing more or less than procedural changes in certain specific areas - it is in no way aimed at questioning the underlying validity of transgender identity, nor is it aimed at questioning the underlying rights (and responsibilities) that society should extend to transgender people.

 

[d4m10n]

“She has said publicly that she does not believes trans men are men or trans women are women. It should not be acceptable for a professor to say things that might hurt someone but might also invalidate someone’s identity and persona and who they are.”

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/3a39938e-2926-11ec-8027-e80d42947f8f

 

[The Atheist]

...It should not be acceptable for a professor to say things that might hurt someone but might also invalidate someone’s identity and persona and who they are.

Aside from the premise being bollocks, there needs to be a "think" as the second-to-last word of that sentence.

Given the subjective demands for pronouning by trans and other rainbow people, and since there's no genetic command to be LGBTQIATYMVE++-/#~ we are all only what we think we are.

 

[p0lka]

I am female, a transgender female. And the only thing I care about in this discussion is trans females being able to compete with cis females (or trans males competing with cis males, but you don't care about that). And yes, I don't care about the transphobes who are standing in our way. And that goes for any other issue we have discussed here.
....

I think using 'female' and 'male' instead of 'woman' and 'man' could be confusing.

woman and man are gender terms, female and male are biology.

 

[theprestige]

I think using 'female' and 'male' instead of 'woman' and 'man' could be confusing.

woman and man are gender terms, female and male are biology.

I told you this was happening. For the purposes of trans-inclusionary activism, the confusion of the terms is a feature, not a bug.

 

[gnome]

I told you this was happening. For the purposes of trans-inclusionary activism, the confusion of the terms is a feature, not a bug.

I think that is a misrepresentation in the case at hand. Boudicca is applying "female" biologically, and says she is female for reasons of biology. You may decide she is mistaken, but she is not conflating biology with gender identity. The distinction in terms remains.

 

[d4m10n]

When I say "female" I mean "born with ova" and that definition is grounded in biological facts about the process of sexual reproduction.

When Boudicca90 says "female," she means...???

 

[gnome]

When I say "female" I mean "born with ova" and that definition is grounded in biological facts about the process of sexual reproduction.

When Boudicca90 says "female," she means...???

That was discussed at length not long ago, if remember right.

 

[theprestige]

I think that is a misrepresentation in the case at hand. Boudicca is applying "female" biologically, and says she is female for reasons of biology. You may decide she is mistaken, but she is not conflating biology with gender identity. The distinction in terms remains.

That conflation is not the only way to engender confusion about the terminology. Damion makes the point as well.

 

[theprestige]

That was discussed at length not long ago, if remember right.

I remember it was discussed briefly, and dead ended right away. Something about how mental processes are brain processes, and brain processes are biological processes. Therefore whatever mental process causes her to believe she's female is the biological fact of being female.

One wonders what Boudicca makes of the mental processes of hypochondria, Munchausen by proxy, and paranoid schizophrenia.

 

[d4m10n]

That was discussed at length not long ago, if remember right.

We've revisited the underlying terms over and over, but (IIRC) inclusionist activists have been relatively reluctant to pin themselves down to specific meanings.

 

[llwyd]

Sport is pretty much my hard limit - it's overwhelmingly a question of biology and not of identification. "An integrated NBA" (what a concept) would mean no professional basketball for biological females. Even with "segregated" sports a mere self-identification as the criteria would mean the end of any chance of being a top athlete for basically all biological females in almost all competitions. That is clearly not acceptable.

But for most social activities cultural gender category works quite well - even if self-identification as the sole criteria will continue being problematic in several areas. Though mostly of course we are talking about theoretical cases and in actual life self-identification is just the first step of many for most trans people.

 

[Venom]

Psychiatrists Shift Stance on Gender Dysphoria, Recommend Therapy (Royal Australian and New Zealand College of Psychiatrists)

"A cautious psychotherapy-first approach makes sense. If we can do that with adolescents then we will take a big step in the right direction," stressed Morris, who is president of the National Association of Practising Psychiatrists in Australia."

"The move by the psychiatry body represents a big shift in the landscape regarding recommendations for the treatment of gender dysphoria in Australia and New Zealand."

"Concerns have arisen that some transgender identification is due to social contagion, and there is a growing number of "detransitioners" — people who identified as transgender, transitioned to the opposite gender, but then regretted their decision, changed their minds, and "detransitioned" back to their birth sex. "

Very interesting.

 

[Myriad]

Oh boy. Get ready to have a lot of pixels spilled (in this thread and elsewhere) about Loudoun County, Virginia.

The earlier narrative from a few months ago: fat white transphobic bigot gets disruptive at school board meeting about new trans rights policies and has to be dragged off half-naked and bloody-faced by police.

The emerging narrative: father whose daughter was raped in a school girl's bathroom by a cross-dressing gender-fluid boy (not trans) objects to school board member's public claim at the aforementioned meeting that no such assault had ever or would ever happen, gets arrested as per above and maliciously prosecuted by overzealous progressive county officials as part of ongoing effort to minimize or cover up the rape; meanwhile juvenile rapist supposedly under house arrest was instead quietly moved to another school where he sexually assaulted another girl.

It's only in the conservative press so far, so I'm not going to link it (do a news search and pick your poison) but the basic framework of the story appears sound.

As Prince Herbert's father at Swamp Castle said when Lancelot started fighting with the wedding guests again: oh, bloody hell.

 

[theprestige]

Sport is pretty much my hard limit - it's overwhelmingly a question of biology and not of identification.

Honestly I think this is the grain of sand at the core of the pearl of unreason. Once you acknowledge the biological distinction, this has implications for the entire question of trans-inclusion in social convention and public policy.

I don't intend for this to be the thin edge of a wedge driven at trans rights, which I believe in and uphold. But I believe others would, and I think trans-inclusionists would be reasonable in fearing such a turn. So I have some sympathy for attempts to hold the line by contesting the biological distinction.

 

[d4m10n]

It's only in the conservative press so far, so I'm not going to link it (do a news search and pick your poison) but the basic framework of the story appears sound.

I found a local news story, if that helps. It appears we're looking at the possibility of a serial offender.

The Loudoun County Sheriff’s Office confirmed that same juvenile suspect was charged with a second sexual assault at another Loudoun County school after the May 28 incident.

 

[Marcus]

Oh boy. Get ready to have a lot of pixels spilled (in this thread and elsewhere) about Loudoun County, Virginia.

The earlier narrative from a few months ago: fat white transphobic bigot gets disruptive at school board meeting about new trans rights policies and has to be dragged off half-naked and bloody-faced by police.

The emerging narrative: father whose daughter was raped in a school girl's bathroom by a cross-dressing gender-fluid boy (not trans) objects to school board member's public claim at the aforementioned meeting that no such assault had ever or would ever happen, gets arrested as per above and maliciously prosecuted by overzealous progressive county officials as part of ongoing effort to minimize or cover up the rape; meanwhile juvenile rapist supposedly under house arrest was instead quietly moved to another school where he sexually assaulted another girl.

It's only in the conservative press so far, so I'm not going to link it (do a news search and pick your poison) but the basic framework of the story appears sound.

As Prince Herbert's father at Swamp Castle said when Lancelot started fighting with the wedding guests again: oh, bloody hell.

It's in mainstream news now although I haven't heard all the details. I'm guessing that the trans-activists won't be too concerned about the two girls who were raped, the important thing will be that a male who claims to be trans should always be allowed in girls spaces.

 

[Elaedith]

Oh boy. Get ready to have a lot of pixels spilled (in this thread and elsewhere) about Loudoun County, Virginia.

The earlier narrative from a few months ago: fat white transphobic bigot gets disruptive at school board meeting about new trans rights policies and has to be dragged off half-naked and bloody-faced by police.

That narrative appeared earlier in this very thread, I believe.

The emerging narrative: father whose daughter was raped in a school girl's bathroom by a cross-dressing gender-fluid boy (not trans) objects to school board member's public claim at the aforementioned meeting that no such assault had ever or would ever happen, gets arrested as per above and maliciously prosecuted by overzealous progressive county officials as part of ongoing effort to minimize or cover up the rape; meanwhile juvenile rapist supposedly under house arrest was instead quietly moved to another school where he sexually assaulted another girl.

Not sure why a 'cross-dressing gender fluid boy' would not be regarded as trans? Once upon a time, 'gender fluid' meant fluid in gender expression (it's ok for both boys/men and girls/women to express gendered behaviour to suit their personalities rather than being confined to gender stereotypes). Now it has morphed to imply that a gender-fluid person actually 'changes gender', thus reinforcing stereotypes (though in reality of course, nothing that exists in material reality actually changes other than gender expression)

 

[TurkeysGhost]

Feds OK Colorado plan to cover gender-affirming care
Colorado state and federal officials announced Tuesday that the state will include gender confirmation care in individual and small group health insurance

https://abcnews.go.com/Health/wireStory/feds-colorado-plan-cover-gender-affirming-care-80547634

Twelve states exclude gender-affirming care in Medicaid coverage and 20 states have not addressed it, according to the Williams Institute.

Gender-affirming care is considered a standard level of care by the American Medical Association, the American Academy of Family Physicians, and the American Psychiatric Association, the federal health department said in a release.