Discussion: Transwomen are not women (Part 7)

[Elaedith]

Psychiatrists Shift Stance on Gender Dysphoria, Recommend Therapy (Royal Australian and New Zealand College of Psychiatrists)

"A cautious psychotherapy-first approach makes sense. If we can do that with adolescents then we will take a big step in the right direction," stressed Morris, who is president of the National Association of Practising Psychiatrists in Australia."

"The move by the psychiatry body represents a big shift in the landscape regarding recommendations for the treatment of gender dysphoria in Australia and New Zealand."

"Concerns have arisen that some transgender identification is due to social contagion, and there is a growing number of "detransitioners" — people who identified as transgender, transitioned to the opposite gender, but then regretted their decision, changed their minds, and "detransitioned" back to their birth sex. "

 

[p0lka]

What is an otter?

I googled otters, so thanks for that.
I now love otters
What was your point?

 

[Meadmaker]

Nope. Lesbians don't sploosh for wood.

 

[Boudicca90]

Sure. The only thing you care about is allowing males to compete against females. The fact that this approach results in sports becoming a single-sex endeavor where only males get to compete... that doesn't matter to you at all.

Repeatedly throughout this discussion you have demonstrated a complete lack of care and compassion toward females. You have repeatedly expressed that you do not care if females are disadvantaged, displaced, endangered, or made uncomfortable... as long as males who identify as women get to have what they want.

It's very difficult for me to come to any conclusion other than that you believe male feelings are more important than female rights, dignity, and safety. Females are something you're willing to see sacrificed for your ideology.

And yet you insist that you are "female" in all the ways that "actually matter".

I would say that you are "female" in all the ways that males are female.

I am female, a transgender female. And the only thing I care about in this discussion is trans females being able to compete with cis females (or trans males competing with cis males, but you don't care about that). And yes, I don't care about the transphobes who are standing in our way. And that goes for any other issue we have discussed here.

Ultimately yes, you will have your wins and can discriminate against us and ban us when you can, but the future is on our side.

Transgender rights and a generational divide

Trans youth are coming out and living in their gender much earlier than older generations

Gen Z Is the Queerest Generation Ever, According to New Survey

The biggest change will come when the Boomers finally die off, leaving the remaining gender critical (TERFs) and transphobes scrambling to find allies who aren't on the far right.

Good luck with that.

 

[d4m10n]

The biggest change will come when the Boomers finally die off, leaving the remaining gender critical (TERFs) and transphobes scrambling to find allies who aren't on the far right.

I'm not confident you've thought this one through. If average Gen X & Y folks (particularly the nonpartisan ones who haven't commited to a side in the culture wars) are told that they have to choose between people who believe women deserve their own leagues and spaces on the one hand and activists who think Caitlyn Jenner might well hold the women's world record in decathlon, they might not break your way.

 

[Meadmaker]

I'm not confident you've thought this one through. If average Gen X & Y folks (particularly the nonpartisan ones who haven't commited to a side in the culture wars) are told that they have to choose between people who believe women deserve their own leagues and spaces on the one hand and activists who think Caitlyn Jenner might well hold the women's world record in decathlon, they might not break your way.

I think the sports issue will actually go away. Once the general social acceptance of transgender people is achieved, they won't feel as much of a need to demand to be treated as the opposite of their birth sex in every single aspect of society.

I'm not sure about the locker room issue, though. 40 years ago, I assumed we were headed toward more openness, less prudishness, less hangups about being seen naked. Instead, the younger generation is a lot more squeamish about nudity than we were.

 

[theprestige]

I would suggest that one can only "identify as" something that they are not. If I were to say that I am vegan, you would be right to expect that I do not eat any animal products. On the other hand, if I were to say that I "identify as" vegan, it very likely would suggest that I feel some resonance with vegan concepts, but that I still consume animal products.

In reality, I am quite clearly an omnivore. I don't "identify as" an omnivore, I objectively eat both plant and animal materials regularly.

The omnivore comparison is interesting because even if you choose a vegan diet, you're still a biological omnivore. It's also interesting because unlike veganism, gender identity is never a choice, and is never something you can be wrong about yourself.

 

[Meadmaker]

...gender identity is never something you can be wrong about yourself.

Detransitioners?

 

[theprestige]

And I'm sure that's important to you.

Credentials tell us they have met certain requirements in terms of training in objectivity and demonstration of objectivity in research. I would say that such credentialing is very important, and should be very important to anyone who values objectivity in science.

Also, if you're going to dismiss scientific reports over presumed bias, that removes the entire scientific argument for gender identity. Without the scientific argument for gender identity, what even is the justification for your demands on society?

 

[Emily's Cat]

I googled otters, so thanks for that.
I now love otters
What was your point?

Otters as animals are beyond adorable. Their little hands! But in the context of different categories of gay men, I'm at a bit of a loss.

 

[Emily's Cat]

I am female, a transgender female. And the only thing I care about in this discussion is trans females being able to compete with cis females (or trans males competing with cis males, but you don't care about that). And yes, I don't care about the transphobes who are standing in our way. And that goes for any other issue we have discussed here.

I know you don't care. If transwomen (aka transgender identified males) compete against females, the transwomen are very likely to win and squeeze females out of the competition. If transmen (aka transgender identified females) compete against males, the transmen are going to lose, and those transgender identified females will be squeezed out of the competition.

Notice that in both cases, it's the females who are squeezed out, leaving sport to be the province of males.

I know you don't care. You've been quite clear that you don't care about females.

 

[theprestige]

Detransitioners?

Brainwashed by biased scientists whose credentials don't mean ****.

 

[theprestige]

Otters as animals are beyond adorable. Their little hands! But in the context of different categories of gay men, I'm at a bit of a loss.

A gay man who is very hairy all over his body, but is smaller in frame and weighs considerably less than a bear.

https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=otter

 

[Emily's Cat]

A gay man who is very hairy all over his body, but is smaller in frame and weighs considerably less than a bear.

https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=otter

Oh! My ex-boss would've qualified if they were gay. Similarly, were my spouse gay, he would definitely count as a bear. It is handy, there are some restaurants and venues where we get excellent service. Well... there are also some where my spouse gets excellent service and I get the cold shoulder...

 

[lionking]

Psychiatrists Shift Stance on Gender Dysphoria, Recommend Therapy (Royal Australian and New Zealand College of Psychiatrists)

"A cautious psychotherapy-first approach makes sense. If we can do that with adolescents then we will take a big step in the right direction," stressed Morris, who is president of the National Association of Practising Psychiatrists in Australia."

"The move by the psychiatry body represents a big shift in the landscape regarding recommendations for the treatment of gender dysphoria in Australia and New Zealand."

"Concerns have arisen that some transgender identification is due to social contagion, and there is a growing number of "detransitioners" — people who identified as transgender, transitioned to the opposite gender, but then regretted their decision, changed their minds, and "detransitioned" back to their birth sex. "

This guy is heading towards a very quick cancelling I fear.

 

[Ziggurat]

I am female

No, actually, you are not. We've been over this before. Biological sex isn't mutable in humans. You are male.

And the only thing I care about in this discussion is trans females being able to compete with cis females

Why? Seriously, what's wrong with competing against cismen? Are you a misandrist?

(or trans males competing with cis males, but you don't care about that).

Isn't that peculiar, though? If the concern over sports participation is driven by hostility to trans people, then why wouldn't there be a drive to exclude transmen from competing with cismen? Yet, there isn't. Isn't that strange?

 

[Ziggurat]

However, this isn't reallu an argument. It's just the automatic gainsaying of what the other person has said

For those who don't get the reference:

 

[d4m10n]

If the concern over sports participation is driven by hostility to trans people, then why wouldn't there be a drive to exclude transmen from competing with cismen?

It's almost as if the sportsball fans are actually motivated by fairness in competition rather than irrational fear of people who've transitioned.

 

[Ziggurat]

It's almost as if the sportsball fans are actually motivated by fairness in competition rather than irrational fear of people who've transitioned.

The other irony is Boudicca90 claiming that opposition to transwomen competing against ciswomen isn't motivated by concern for fairness when she explicitly stated that fairness isn't a priority for her.

Almost like it's projection.

 

[gnome]

I think the sports issue will actually go away. Once the general social acceptance of transgender people is achieved, they won't feel as much of a need to demand to be treated as the opposite of their birth sex in every single aspect of society.

I'm not sure about the locker room issue, though. 40 years ago, I assumed we were headed toward more openness, less prudishness, less hangups about being seen naked. Instead, the younger generation is a lot more squeamish about nudity than we were.

I think we'll see the whole locker room thing fade a bit as we trend towards an individual theme of privacy instead of gender or sex based. That appeals to me, actually, and I am definitely not the "younger generation".

It may be that some of the pressure to allow more isolation due to the pandemic will move this along. Don't get me wrong, I'd gladly trade any positive social side effects for not having had a deadly pandemic in the first place. But if something good happens to come from it, it seems fine to embrace those positives.