The Sinking of MS Estonia: Case Re-opened Part II

[LondonJohn]

Why would they? This is state versus state. The CIA/KSI/MI6 versus the GRU (which is just the old KGB in new wine bottles). Not Johan Bjornsson versus Ivor Kalashnikov, neighbours disputing overhanging branches.

No. The GRU is not "just the old KGB in new wine bottles". The GRU, in fact, is the military intelligence agency of Russia (today) and USSR (before the break-up of the Soviet Union). The GRU is an entirely different entity from both the KGB (pre-break-up) or FSU (what the KGB effectively became in Russia post-break-up).

The GRU was established during WWII and operated (in conjunction with, but separate from) the KGB during the whole of the cold war.


Please could you do at least some rudimentary fact-checking research before posting things? Not to do so is indicative of a certain sloppiness of approach and a low commitment to accuracy.


(Not to mention, of course, that in the matter of the Estonia sinking, all this Len Deighton spy novel nonsense about warring intelligence agencies is just that: nonsense.)

 

[LondonJohn]

Would you expect any civilised government, for example, the UK, to allow military materiel to be carried on public transport?* Imagine the UK in the 1970's - it would have made the public targets of the IRA and not just the 'military'.

*A simple yes or no will do.

You mean, something like this:

TWO BRITISH army vehicles and their drivers took the ferry from Harwich to Gothenburg, Sweden, instead of to West Germany, where they were to have taken part in an exercise.

http://archive.commercialmotor.com/article/11th-june-1983/30/the-troops-who-took-the-wrong-turning

 

[LondonJohn]

The government are the law makers. The Swedish government made it law that no-one was to blame. How do you sue your own government when they have made it a law that you cannot sue them?

IIRC the crew survivors/next of kin received €44m to share between them. The Swedish government gave the members of its public affected €18,000, which is laughable as most survivors suffered Post Traumatic Stress Disorders for years after, inhibiting their ability to work.

No. The parliament (legislature) are the lawmakers, not the government.

Research. Accuracy. Are you at all familiar with these terms?

 

[LondonJohn]

I don't accept that using a welding kit in your living room would be able to heat steel up to 700°.

Holy crap.

That statement has as much integrity and validity as if I made a statement such as "I don't accept that the day of the week following Tuesday is Wednesday".

 

[Andy_Ross]

Just to say the term 'Public Transport' usually refers to passenger services like railways, busses and river ferries. Seagoing ships are not what would be considered 'public transport'

 

[Andy_Ross]

Just to say the term 'Public Transport' usually refers to passenger services like railways, busses and river ferries. Seagoing ships are not what would be considered 'public transport'

In your living room or elsewhere?

 

[LondonJohn]

Yes, 'military material' uses 'public transport'

North Sea and cross channel ferries routinely carry military vehicles and personnel.

Do you think they charter a ro-ro ferry every time they want to move a few trucks?

Totally correct.

I grew up as a kid/teenager mostly in Germany on RAF bases. Around twice a year on average, we used to travel to and from UK by car and ferry, usually via Zeebrugge* (because it was the continental port that was closest to the UK military bases in Germany and to SHAPE in Belgium).

Much more often than not, there were British military vehicles on the ferry, mostly Army trucks. But at least once there was a Chieftain tank on a tank transporter, and I also remember once seeing a part-disassembled Lynx helicopter on the back of a transporter.

I guess I should have realised - even in my adolescent naivety - that some or all of these vehicles might have been being covertly smuggled by corrupt members of the British Army, en route to Russia. Silly me!


* as a side-note, I sailed on Herald of Free Enterprise many, many times - the last time, about 2 months before it sank.

 

[GlennB]

I don't accept that using a welding kit in your living room would be able to heat steel up to 700°.

And I don't believe that you don't believe it. Why are you doing this?

 

[LondonJohn]

And I don't believe that you don't believe it. Why are you doing this?

It is pretty unbelievable to think that a person would state such a lack of belief.


(Especially since it would take literally several seconds online to find reliable evidence that this lack of belief was totally unfounded....)

 

[GlennB]

It is pretty unbelievable to think that a person would state such a lack of belief.


(Especially since it would take literally several seconds online to find reliable evidence that this lack of belief was totally unfounded....)

Funnily enough I bought a thermocouple some years back - it was cheap and I love gadgets and I wanted to know how hot our wood stove ran. Turned out the thermocouple was a reasonable meat thermometer too, though the wire probe tended to buckle, so you had to poke a hole in the meat first Later I bought a proper meat thermometer.

Anyway, it's a chilly evening here and I'm burning a few logs in the stove. I just shoved the probe into some bright red coals that have formed and the reading zoomed up to just over 700°C+ in seconds. Of course it did, because that's normal.

I'm hugely intrigued by Vixen's work here, though it might very well just be trolling for laughs. If so, she's getting a shedload of laughs.

eta: d'uh. A much simpler experiment was to train a cigarette lighter on the probe. It reached 800+ in about 10 seconds.

 

[whoanellie]

Funnily enough I bought a thermocouple some years back - it was cheap and I love gadgets and I wanted to know how hot our wood stove ran. Turned out the thermocouple was a reasonable meat thermometer too, though the wire probe tended to buckle, so you had to poke a hole in the meat first Later I bought a proper meat thermometer.

Anyway, it's a chilly evening here and I'm burning a few logs in the stove. I just shoved the probe into some bright red coals that have formed and the reading zoomed up to just over 700°C+ in seconds. Of course it did, because that's normal.

I'm hugely intrigued by Vixen's work here, though it might very well just be trolling for laughs. If so, she's getting a shedload of laughs.

eta: d'uh. A much simpler experiment was to train a cigarette lighter on the probe. It reached 800+ in about 10 seconds.

Is the stove in your living room? The lighter?

 

[GlennB]

Is the stove in your living room? The lighter?

Both! Or do I live in a laboratory? I see no test tubes ...

 

[Kid Eager]

Funnily enough I bought a thermocouple some years back - it was cheap and I love gadgets and I wanted to know how hot our wood stove ran. Turned out the thermocouple was a reasonable meat thermometer too, though the wire probe tended to buckle, so you had to poke a hole in the meat first Later I bought a proper meat thermometer.

Anyway, it's a chilly evening here and I'm burning a few logs in the stove. I just shoved the probe into some bright red coals that have formed and the reading zoomed up to just over 700°C+ in seconds. Of course it did, because that's normal.

I'm hugely intrigued by Vixen's work here, though it might very well just be trolling for laughs. If so, she's getting a shedload of laughs.

eta: d'uh. A much simpler experiment was to train a cigarette lighter on the probe. It reached 800+ in about 10 seconds.

I don't think there's much doubt of that any more, if ever there was.

 

[GlennB]

I don't think there's much doubt of that any more, if ever there was.

True.

 

[SpitfireIX]

Both! Or do I live in a laboratory? I see no test tubes ...

Maybe it's a business science laboratory.

 

[GlennB]

Maybe it's a business science laboratory.

No rent coming my way. Damn Swedes! (and Russkies)

 

[Reformed Offlian]

Maybe it's a business science laboratory.

Or a domestic science or family and consumer science laboratory. Apparently that's a thing, too.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Home_economics

 

[Axxman300]

Nah, that's Mexican. What is really odd though, is how wide Mexican is spoken across the world despite Mexico not have a history of conquest and colonisation...

Never under estimate the power of tacos.

Fact: Had there been a taco truck on the car deck of Estonia it might not have sunk because at the first sign of water the entire crew would have rushed down there to get control of the situation if for no other reason than to save that taco truck.

 

[Vixen]

Are we going through this again?

Are you still maintaining that not one of the rescue teams or hospital staff will have talked with the survivors as the were being rescued or coming ashore?

Are you now also back to a Swedish submarine ramming the ferry and sinking it?

Again, what is the point of a submarine escort? what was it expected to do?

Privacy laws are very strong here. Hospitals will never discuss patients. However, re the 'missing' Estonian 'survivors': their names do appear on all sorts of official lists, including the pilot logbooks. How did their names get onto these lists at all? How is it possible?

These include senior officers housed on the upper decks near to the escape routes. Chief engineer, chief medical officer, second captain.

 

[Vixen]

In your own words, what is a Gish Gallop Vixen?

Gish gallop is a form of logical fallacy. I was quoting confirmed sources and current news as well as stating facts; that does not constitute gish gallop, just because there are many theories as to the cause of the accident.

Clear now?

It'd be rather like me calling you a horrible name but it doesn't make it true.