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The Sinking of MS Estonia: Case Re-opened Part II

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Vixen said:
Presumably for failing to spot the worn out car ramp and poor alignment of the bow visor.
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They never looked at it. They were just recertifying the load line and cargo capacity of the ship when it changed flags.
 
Jack by the hedge said:
That simple yes or no would depend on precisely what you mean by "military materiel". Are you talking about hazardous materials like explosives or are you talking about inert objects like electronics or metal parts?

Do you actually know what it was you tell us Sweden admitted to smuggling?
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The Swedish Customs guy who blew the whistle says he saw electronic equipment when he took a shufty at it.
 
Vixen said:
I don't accept that using a welding kit in your living room would be able to heat steel up to 700°.
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Not what I asked. Please answer the questions that I asked.
You know, these ones:

junkshop said:
Do you accept that your claim that "To even get to temperatures above 700°C artificially you need to be in a laboratory." was wrong?

Do you accept that your claim that "To even get to temperatures above 700°C artificially you need to be in a laboratory." is a quotation from Braidwood's report for the GEG was untrue?
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Vixen said:
I don't accept that using a welding kit in your living room would be able to heat steel up to 700°.
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Why would you specify in someone's living room?

What would the location have to do wit hit?

If the welder worked it would melt the steel if it was in a living room on on a ship.
That's how welding works. Haven't you grasped that yet?

You can even weld under water, the steel still melts.
 
Jack by the hedge said:
So Carl Bildt went to Estonia, stole a load of Russian stuff and gave it a military escort to the docks where he loaded it onto the Estonia?

Or was it some other Swede who did all that?

Or was Sweden just the customer?

Do you know or are you guessing?
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Oh dear. Carl Bildt was the head of state in charge of the SäPo and the KSI, just as Bojo controls the UK security services. However, when it comes to defence, we all know it is the Generals who are really in charge, or rather, 'advise' the government what needs to be done re intelligence work. The Swedish Customs Officer - the Customs are answerable to the government - said the orders completely bypassed government and they were told to let through the smuggled stuff unexamined, orders that came from a higher power than the government. (This would have been Svensson.) Bildt according to wikileaks was a CIA agent anyway. So the operatives working for the KSI (MI6/CIA equivalent) arranged for the transport of the smuggled stuff. Bumping one or two of those off isn't going to stop the smuggling, is it?


We know this because the Customs guy is named and the Swedish government admitted it in the Riksdag vis-à-vis Johan Hirschfeldt, in 2005, some ten years later. It is a fact. Not a theory.
 
Vixen said:
I don't accept that using a welding kit in your living room would be able to heat steel up to 700°.
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It would probably be unwise inside the house due to the mess it makes, though considering the state of our living room, nobody would notice. But it would certainly work and welding steel does fundamentally mean melting steel at the joint, whether you accept it o not.
 
Captain_Swoop said:
They never looked at it. They were just recertifying the load line and cargo capacity of the ship when it changed flags.
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Their job was to certify it as 'seaworthy'. Having done so, the JAIC declared the vessel was seaworthy, when clearly it could not have been if the bow visor was ready to fall off as soon as a Baltic Sea wave slapped it.
 
Vixen said:
Their job was to certify it as 'seaworthy'. Having done so, the JAIC declared the vessel was seaworthy, when clearly it could not have been if the bow visor was ready to fall off as soon as a Baltic Sea wave slapped it.
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No, they were recertifying the load line and cargo capacity.

Construction of the bow visor wasn't a part of that.
 
Vixen said:
The threat of reprisal/sabotage. The Russians don't hesitate, you know.
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I doubt that that is something covered by H&S regs.

As far as civil liability is concerned, had the Russians previously sunk ferries on which their secrets were being smuggled?
 
Mojo said:
That didn’t sink the ship. The ship was sunk, according to you, by Russian agents for whom Sweden is not responsible:
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So, back to my question. You are a passenger on that stricken ship. Who do you sue: Russia 100% or are Sweden also vicariously liable for putting you in a position as a human shield?
 
Captain_Swoop said:
Why would you specify in someone's living room?

What would the location have to do wit hit?

If the welder worked it would melt the steel if it was in a living room on on a ship.
That's how welding works. Haven't you grasped that yet?

You can even weld under water, the steel still melts.
Click to expand...

We were talking about whether the claim that 700° would be something that had taken place in an artificial situation such as a laboratory. You are claiming that a deformation compatible with that caused by an explosion can be created by simply getting yourself a welding kit and applying it to a piece of metal which could be in any old environment, hence the Clausthal-Zellerfeld lab/Brian Braidwood were patently incorrect.
 
Vixen said:
Oh dear. Carl Bildt was the head of state in charge of the SäPo and the KSI, just as Bojo controls the UK security services. However, when it comes to defence, we all know it is the Generals who are really in charge, or rather, 'advise' the government what needs to be done re intelligence work. The Swedish Customs Officer - the Customs are answerable to the government - said the orders completely bypassed government and they were told to let through the smuggled stuff unexamined, orders that came from a higher power than the government. (This would have been Svensson.) Bildt according to wikileaks was a CIA agent anyway. So the operatives working for the KSI (MI6/CIA equivalent) arranged for the transport of the smuggled stuff. Bumping one or two of those off isn't going to stop the smuggling, is it?


We know this because the Customs guy is named and the Swedish government admitted it in the Riksdag vis-à-vis Johan Hirschfeldt, in 2005, some ten years later. It is a fact. Not a theory.
Click to expand...

So you are indeed guessing and Sweden were possibly not even the customer, merely an enabler.

And of course killing the smugglers would stop the smuggling. The western security services would have recruited the people in the best position to be able carry it out. Do you think there's an unlimited supply of desperate, suicidal smugglers at Smugglers R Us?
 
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