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The Sinking of MS Estonia: Case Re-opened Part II

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Vixen said:
So, back to my question. You are a passenger on that stricken ship. Who do you sue: Russia 100% or are Sweden also vicariously liable for putting you in a position as a human shield?
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Sweden is only vicariously liable for actions carried out by its own agents. The ship was, according to you, sunk by agents of the Russians, who according to you are totally independent of Sweden.

And no evidence has been presented that the Swedish government was using the ferry passengers as a human shield.
 
Jack by the hedge said:
It would probably be unwise inside the house due to the mess it makes, though considering the state of our living room, nobody would notice. But it would certainly work and welding steel does fundamentally mean melting steel at the joint, whether you accept it o not.
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So are you claiming the Clausthal-Zellerfeld do not know what they are talking about? From wiki: The small public university is regularly ranked among the Top German universities in engineering by CHE University Rankings.[2]
 
Vixen said:
Their job was to certify it as 'seaworthy'. Having done so, the JAIC declared the vessel was seaworthy, when clearly it could not have been if the bow visor was ready to fall off as soon as a Baltic Sea wave slapped it.
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Still at it. We did this already. Your "but, but, but the JAIC declared it was seaworthy" was a load of poisonous crap the first time around and still is.
 
Vixen said:
So are you claiming the Clausthal-Zellerfeld do not know what they are talking about?
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Whenever you ask a question about technical expertise in this format you may take it for granted that the answer will be that you did not know what they're talking about.
 
Mojo said:
I doubt that that is something covered by H&S regs.

As far as civil liability is concerned, had the Russians previously sunk ferries on which their secrets were being smuggled?
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It has the Russian signature written all over it.

Compare and contrast the Wilhelm Gustloff and the Estonia:

Sunk within less than an hour

90% of those on board drowned with no means of escape

Of 10,000 on board the former, only about 1,320 were rescued.

Of 1,000 on board the latter only 137 survived.

The Mayday signal was not received in either for a long time.
 
junkshop said:
There were two questions. Which is this in answer to, and what is your answer to the other?
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I was paraphrasing, so seems all right to me. I am sure you could buy a welding kit from Argos and set about recreating the bow visor deformations seen but that doesn't cancel out the Clausthal-Zellerfeld observations.
 
Vixen said:
It has the Russian signature written all over it.

Compare and contrast the Wilhelm Gustloff and the Estonia:
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So the Russian signature is three torpedoes. Or four torpedoes if they all work.

That's not written all over the Estonia.
 
Captain_Swoop said:
Yes, 'military material' uses 'public transport'

North Sea and cross channel ferries routinely carry military vehicles and personnel.

Do you think they charter a ro-ro ferry every time they want to move a few trucks?
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When my unit deployed to Bosnia, we used civilian trains (Deutsche Bahn) to move our Bradleys and most of our other "military" vehicles and stuff.
 
Big catastrophes are usually chaotic events with a big number of mistaken or confused observations and all sorts of wild rumours that the bereaved often latch on to: there must be some evil conspiracy that took my loved one away, not just a depressing series of human errors, failures and confusion.

If only we would have an exhaustive technical accident report compiled by top experts that would explain the overwhelming mass of observations and evidence and which would present a logical overall decription of the chain of events that led to the sinking.

Oh, wait, we actually do have one...

This is a Nordic-Baltic WTC 9/11: a goldmine for cynical conspiracy mongers and gutter media conning the easily duped.
 
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Jack by the hedge said:
So you are indeed guessing and Sweden were possibly not even the customer, merely an enabler.

And of course killing the smugglers would stop the smuggling. The western security services would have recruited the people in the best position to be able carry it out. Do you think there's an unlimited supply of desperate, suicidal smugglers at Smugglers R Us?
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Don't be silly. That would be like saying one could have stopped World War II by simply killing one or two German soldiers. No, because there is a whole queue of millions more behind them. It is the German Third Reich you need to target.
 
Vixen said:
We were talking about whether the claim that 700° would be something that had taken place in an artificial situation such as a laboratory. You are claiming that a deformation compatible with that caused by an explosion can be created by simply getting yourself a welding kit and applying it to a piece of metal which could be in any old environment, hence the Clausthal-Zellerfeld lab/Brian Braidwood were patently incorrect.
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this is an obvious lie.

You do know we can look back through the thread and read what was claimed.

You claimed that 700 degrees was only possible in a lab or 'detonation'

We pointed out that welding uses far higher temperatures and that all the parts on the ship that were welded would show that they had been heated to over 700 degrees.
 
Vixen said:
I was paraphrasing, so seems all right to me. I am sure you could buy a welding kit from Argos and set about recreating the bow visor deformations seen but that doesn't cancel out the Clausthal-Zellerfeld observations.
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Are you trying to convince us that anyone is arguing the damage caused when the visor was ripped off its mountings was due to a saboteur doing some welding?
 
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