The Sinking of MS Estonia: Case Re-opened Part II

[GlennB]

Can't help but wonder what kind of cretins Vixen associates with IRL that makes her think such utter crap will be accepted here.

Accountants? Mind you, I've known a few and they were generally OK.

 

[Vixen]

the appearance of parallel shear bands (Neumann bands), Yes.

Though not specifically Neumann bands (due to impact) but similar in “the rejection of free cementite to the planes it occupies.”


Science Abstracts: Electrical & electronics abstracts, Volume 21, Part 2

You have to scroll down a bit to get to the quoted part.

Also as part of the welding process slag is often struck off the weld with a welding hammer. So there generally will be impacts to the weld and surrounding area while the material is still hot.

welding hammer

changes respectively destruction of the cementite lamellas in the perlite, Yes

Depending on how the part is cooled, slower cooling tends to anneal the part.

Fragmentation Rate of Cementite Lamellas in Nanopearlite

As noted above a process often involved before manufacturing with the material , to get a baseline crystalline structure and ease, intended, plastic defamation during forming.

hardness increase, Yes

Again depending on how it is cooled.

Rapid cooling locks more of the the perlite and martensite from returning to the austenite structure. IIRC, metallurgy class was almost some 40 years ago and all of my reference books are at home. Also hardening quenching is usually done in oil or also the heating takes place with carbon nearby to provide more carbon for more of the Pearlite Transformation

Pearlite Transformation

Also just using and working a metal part tends to work-harden it over time.

Work hardening

You can flex a wire back and forth until it breaks, that fracture is due to the embrittlement caused by the work-hardening you applied in repeatedly flexing it.

plastic deformation in the micro area (wavy arrangement of the structure parts), Yes

Plastic deformation during welding (from uneven heating and cooling) is a common issue and may even result in a need for the part to be worked back into an adequately functional shape.

Weld Distortion

Arc welding generates a plasma at the bonding area (localized to the electrode tip) which can lead to uneven heating and subsequent cooling of the part. So not only can welding account for all of this, but likewise can just general parts production and stressful in service use, particularly to the point of failure (perhaps even more than one failure if the part had to be welded).

"It depends". "Depending on". Without using the term 'depends' are you claiming a mig welding kit will achieve the same deformation on metal as a detonation? Are you saying the three laboratories Brian Braidwood sent his samples to were all lying when they said the deformation noted were indicative of a possible detonation of some force?

 

[Vixen]

I made no such claim.



You literally claimed to be a scientist. Twice. Largely you just make statements and arguments that would ordinarily require expertise to give them authority, and expect those arguments and statements to be taken at face value even when they are trivially disprovable.

And how does being a scientist have anything at all to do with this topic? This is about current affairs and thus is about reporting news.

 

[JayUtah]

And how does being a scientist have anything at all to do with this topic? This is about current affairs and thus is about reporting news.

So why are you telling people they don't know what a null hypothesis is, if all you're doing is reporting the news?

 

[Vixen]

Yes, terribly reckless.

But not risking the lives of 250k people.

Sent from my SM-G991U using Tapatalk

Sorry, are you saying a nerve agent left in a public place didn't put people's lives at risk? That is a staggering claim.

The Department for Environment confirmed the nerve agent was delivered "in a liquid form". They said eight sites require decontamination, which will take several months to complete and cost millions of pounds. The BBC reported experts said the nerve agent does not evaporate or disappear over time. Intense cleaning with caustic chemicals is required to get rid of it.[85][86] The Skripals' survival was possibly due to the weather – there had been heavy fog and high humidity, and according to its inventor and other scientists, moisture weakens the potency of this type of toxin

Wiki

 

[Vixen]

Again, either you lie or you are an incompetent reader. Not really worth correcting this misstatement, since other readers know what I said and neither dishonesty nor poor reading comprehension are amenable to correction.


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You wrote:

"There's a bit of poison ivy in my backyard. It contains, I'm sure, enough Urishiol to produce rashes in me and my neighbors for blocks around. I am nonetheless not putting my neighbors at risk just by "owning" that much Urishiol."

Did you not? So you did indeed liken Novochik* a highly toxic and dangerous nerve agent with 'a bit of poison ivy in my backyard', so who is 'dishonest and has poor reading comprehension'?


*

Russian scientists who developed the nerve agents claim they are the deadliest ever made, with some variants possibly five to eight times more potent than VX,[8][9] and others up to ten times more potent than soman.[10] As well as Russia, Novichok agents have been known to be produced in Iran.[11]

wiki

 

[Vixen]

No we are talking about the temperature of the metal, you claimed that anything above 700 degrees would only be found in a lab.

Deformation is a separate matter.

Actually, what the Clausthal-Zellerfeld laboratory said was that 'as it [the sample provided by Braidwood] had not been treated in a laboratory to a temperature of 700 - 720 then...'.

In other words, it assumed no prior high heat treatment that would have caused the twinning deformation that was seen. It was stating its assumptions, which is quite conventional, that is all.

 

[Vixen]

You asked. “What if Person A happens to be your own government?” Your question assumes that Person A is Person B’s government. According to your argument these are the same entity. Why would it need to sink a ship to send itself a message?

Sweden (Person A) is not Russia (Person B).

Sweden and Russia are totally independent of each other.

 

[Vixen]

This would have been visible when the documentary guy filmed the hole last year, which implies he's incompetent or dishonest. This whole exercise seems to be a waste of time. The hole is a stress fracture caused by impact with the sea floor, not a bomb.

Sure, they will head back out next year and dive the wreck to gather more data but the sequence of events which sank the Estonia will not likely change.

The fact that the Estonia landed near a moraine clay bed rock doesn't mean the rocks nearby caused the breach in the hull. However, IMV it is good they are investigating it at last.

 

[phiwum]

Sorry, are you saying a nerve agent left in a public place didn't put people's lives at risk? That is a staggering claim.



Wiki

Yes, it would be a staggering claim had I made it.

Instead, I merely pointed out that it was stupid to claim they literally risked the lives of 250k people, as you did.

However, your claim is largely beside the point, so we needn't waste any more time on this topic.

Sent from my SM-G991U using Tapatalk

 

[MarkCorrigan]

Sweden (Person A) is not Russia (Person B).

Sweden and Russia are totally independent of each other.

He's quoting YOU!

 

[Vixen]

He's quoting YOU!

He deliberately juxtaposed Russia with the word Sweden in his first query, so he is less than honest.

 

[LondonJohn]

I never said I had A-Level Physics. Stop lying.

A quick google tells you: The hotness of the gas stove flame ranges from 600℃-3000℃ depending on two important factors. One of these important factors is the amount of energy beings released from fuel combustion, while the other important factor is the availability of pure oxygen rather than air to ensure complete combustion.

In passing, incidentally, I seem to remember you fairly sardonically mocking people who (as you understood* it) were gleaning information from places such as google.

Turns out that what's good for the goose isn't good for the gander, huh?


(Not to mention that even when things are googled, the search results require a decent and appropriate amount of overall analytical ability to allow them to be properly understood, interpreted, and interpolated into posts.)



* Though of course the irony was/is that almost all the time, the people you were attacking for googling info.... were doing nothing of the sort - because they actually understood the matter perfectly well themselves without needing to resort to internet searches.

 

[GlennB]

He deliberately juxtaposed Russia with the word Sweden in his first query, so he is less than honest.

No, he didn't. His query is shown below and is crystal clear:

Your question introduced a scenario in which Person A was Person B’s own government. Sweden is not Russia’s government.

 

[Andy_Ross]

"It depends". "Depending on". Without using the term 'depends' are you claiming a mig welding kit will achieve the same deformation on metal as a detonation? Are you saying the three laboratories Brian Braidwood sent his samples to were all lying when they said the deformation noted were indicative of a possible detonation of some force?

How big do you think the welding kit that ship builders use is?

How big do you think the plasma cutters and gas torches they use to cut the plates and components are?

Deformation of the parts was caused by their failure due to stress, not due to heat.

We are talking about welding because you claimed that the only way the sample could have been heated is because of a 'detonation'.

 

[Andy_Ross]

Sorry, are you saying a nerve agent left in a public place didn't put people's lives at risk? That is a staggering claim.

Wiki

For it to be the same as deliberately sinking the Estonia the nerve agent would have to have been deliberately released over the city.

 

[Andy_Ross]

Actually, what the Clausthal-Zellerfeld laboratory said was that 'as it [the sample provided by Braidwood] had not been treated in a laboratory to a temperature of 700 - 720 then...'.

In other words, it assumed no prior high heat treatment that would have caused the twinning deformation that was seen. It was stating its assumptions, which is quite conventional, that is all.

It wasn't 'treated in a lab' It was welded in a shipyard to melting point which is far higher than 700 degrees.

 

[LondonJohn]

It's a translation from the German, which can trip up English speakers in respect of sentence structure. It is from this web page here.

Are you working on some sort of commission from estoniaferrydisaster.net?

 

[Vixen]

No, he didn't. His query is shown below and is crystal clear:

I wrote:

Originally Posted by Vixen
Think about it. Person A is carrying stolen military equipment of a foreign state on his passenger coach. The coach is sabotaged after several warnings by that foreign power to cease and desist. People get hurt.

Question: is Person A vicariously liable for putting his passengers' safety at risk?

If your loved one was one of the passengers would you consider suing Person A or is the fault 100% the foreign power?

Mojo mischievously changed the wording to Russia as being the smugglers.


Originally Posted by Mojo
Why would the Swedish government cover up something that was done by the Russian intelligence services as a result of smuggling by the Russian government?


In other words, Mojo was deliberately time wasting, gaslighting and congratulating himself on being clever.

 

[Vixen]

How big do you think the welding kit that ship builders use is?

How big do you think the plasma cutters and gas torches they use to cut the plates and components are?

Deformation of the parts was caused by their failure due to stress, not due to heat.

We are talking about welding because you claimed that the only way the sample could have been heated is because of a 'detonation'.

Whoa. Are you seriously claiming that a home DIY welding kit will lead to the same metal deformations as a detonation would?