• Quick note - the problem with Youtube videos not embedding on the forum appears to have been fixed, thanks to ZiprHead. If you do still see problems let me know.

The Sinking of MS Estonia: Case Re-opened Part II

Status
Not open for further replies.
Vixen said:
Look. Water boils at 100°C. If you have a gas stove, then the flame you are using is anything up to 600°C in intensity. Yet it takes at least 4 - 6 minutes to boil 1 pint of water.

How long do you have to point your arc welding cutter at a piece of thick reinforced steel to get it to melt? It certainly doesn't happen instantly.
Click to expand...
Seconds, That is how long. Why do you not know this? How is it possible for anyone to be that ignorant? Ever done any welding? Of course not.
 
So we are swine then? What was it you said about how you would never be rude?

These deflections are obvious Vixen. We all know you can't answer the question, and the pretence that you can you just don't want to is pathetically obvious. You don't know what the null hypothesis is and the fact that you're not the smartest person in the room is eating you up inside.

Prove me wrong. Shut down the person who is claiming you don't know what you're talking about and have been humiliating yourself in this thread. What is the null hypothesis and how is it used in science. You're a "scientist". Explain this exceptionally basic scientific concept.
 
Mojo said:
You were talking about action being taken to prevent “Person A” from “carrying stolen military equipment of a foreign state”. When it was suggested that this could be done without injuring or killing many innocent bystanders, you replied, “What if Person A happens to be your own government?”

Your position so far has been that the Russians sank the Estonia to “send a message”, and the Swedes covered it up. Neither of these makes any sense if it was the Russians’ “own government” that was transporting the stolen equipment.
Click to expand...

OK. Let's start again. A poster enquired why would Sweden want to cover up the Estonia 'accident' if it was carried out by Russia.

Imagine Person A runs a coach company and he or she smuggles dangerous goods belonging to Person B on a passenger coach on requestor an order from Person C. Person B exacts revenge when Person A refuses to desist and innocent passengers get hurt. Your loved one is one of those passengers and you want to sue. Do you consider Person B 100% liable or is Person A also vicariously liable?

Substitute 'Sweden' for Person A, 'Russia' for Person B and USA/CIA/KSI/MI6 for Person C.

Clear now?
 
Vixen said:
Stop being a clever dick. Deliberately changing key words to change the meaning of what was said isn't for me to bother correcting.
Click to expand...

Dunno. Somewhere about the place is my first oxy acetylene weld. I can guarantee those two steel plates were melted along the join. The aim of the game was to get a consistent ripple along the join.

Nevertheless your claim is that welding does not involve molten steel at all, ever.

Well you are wrong. Deal with it.
 
LondonJohn said:
Still refusing to face the facts*, huh? And still apparently operating on the presumption that the official investigation and report a) was neither rigorous nor supported by evidence ("guesswork"..... sheesh), and b) was most likely part of some form of cover-up by national governments to protect state secrets. Straight out of the conspiracy-theory playbook, in other words.

(Oh, and I recall you flatly contradicting - more than once - the claim that the deformation/damage to the starboard hull was in fact caused by the initial (ie when the ship actually sank and hit the seabed) impact of the Estonia on that rock outcrop and surrounding seabed.)


* And I'm afraid it speaks very poorly to the "expertise", judgement and credibility of Andersson that he was prepared to offer a firm opinion on a matter which - demonstrably, now - was not borne out by any actual evidence. Why do you (Vixen) think that he was prepared to give such a misleading and factually-incorrect opinion as little as 9 months ago?
Click to expand...

AIUI it is thanks to newer extra-high resolution quality of the images that has made the difference, together with the wreck having shifted 6° or more in the interim.
 
Vixen said:
In your original post you claimed I said it was the Russians smuggling armaments...
Click to expand...


You defined “Person A” as someone smuggling armaments and, when asked why someone wanting to stop them couldn’t take action short of sabotage with major collateral damage replied, “What if Person A happens to be your own government?”

What did you mean by this? Are you withdrawing your claim that the Estonia was sunk as a result of Russian sabotage?
 
abaddon said:
Seconds, That is how long. Why do you not know this? How is it possible for anyone to be that ignorant? Ever done any welding? Of course not.
Click to expand...

Does welding cause the following to happen, since you are so knowledgeable:

  • • the appearance of parallel shear bands (Neumann bands)
    • changes respectively destruction of the cementite lamellas in the perlite
    • hardness increase
    • plastic deformation in the micro area (wavy arrangement of the structure parts)

A simple yes or no will suffice.
 
MarkCorrigan said:
So we are swine then? What was it you said about how you would never be rude?

These deflections are obvious Vixen. We all know you can't answer the question, and the pretence that you can you just don't want to is pathetically obvious. You don't know what the null hypothesis is and the fact that you're not the smartest person in the room is eating you up inside.

Prove me wrong. Shut down the person who is claiming you don't know what you're talking about and have been humiliating yourself in this thread. What is the null hypothesis and how is it used in science. You're a "scientist". Explain this exceptionally basic scientific concept.
Click to expand...

Do look it up on Google.
 
Vixen said:
I got the 600° from google.
Click to expand...

Link please, as I'm unable to find any source that says that. This is no great surprise as it's wildly wrong, as you should have known. Even a candle burns much hotter than 600.

Vixen said:
If the flame in a typical gas stove hob is 1900°C why does it take 8 minutes to boil one pint of water to 100°C?
Click to expand...

The time it takes will depend on the mass of water involved, as anybody with a grain of life experience will tell you. No science required, but for someone who claims to have an 'A' level (or similar) qualification in physics even to ask the question tells me they were lying about possessing the qualification.
 
Vixen said:
OK. Let's start again. A poster enquired why would Sweden want to cover up the Estonia 'accident' if it was carried out by Russia.

Imagine Person A runs a coach company and he or she smuggles dangerous goods belonging to Person B on a passenger coach on requestor an order from Person C. Person B exacts revenge when Person A refuses to desist and innocent passengers get hurt. Your loved one is one of those passengers and you want to sue. Do you consider Person B 100% liable or is Person A also vicariously liable?

Substitute 'Sweden' for Person A, 'Russia' for Person B and USA/CIA/KSI/MI6 for Person C.

Clear now?
Click to expand...


No, because your question, “What if Person A happens to be your own government?” Substitutes the Russian government for Person A.
 
Vixen said:
Do look it up on Google.
Click to expand...

I'm asking you. I know what it is, I just don't think you do so I'm asking you to prove it. Stop deflecting, it's getting embarrassing now. What is the null hypothesis and how is it used in science? Come on "scientist". Answer the simple question and stop running away like a coward.
 
Mojo said:
You defined “Person A” as someone smuggling armaments and, when asked why someone wanting to stop them couldn’t take action short of sabotage with major collateral damage replied, “What if Person A happens to be your own government?”

What did you mean by this? Are you withdrawing your claim that the Estonia was sunk as a result of Russian sabotage?
Click to expand...

Sweden admitted to smuggling ex-Soviet secrets and materiel on the Estonia and also specifically during September 1994, and now Johan Hirschfeld is backtracking claiming he 'may not have been given all the information' regarding 27/28Sept 1994 as to whether it carried smuggled sensitive equipment on that occasion.

It was Sweden doing the smuggling for the CIA/M16, according to Jutta Rabe, and the final destination was Israel (she claims). Russia found out (no surprise) and formally twice warned the western agencies to stop. Hence if you don't understand why Sweden might want to immediately cover up the 'accident' when it is your own government (>500 of the dead are Swedish nationals) who is doing it.
 
Last edited:
Vixen said:
I got the 600° from google.

If the flame in a typical gas stove hob is 1900°C why does it take 8 minutes to boil one pint of water to 100°C?

Q.E.D. The fact your mig welding machine reaches >6,000°C, doesn't mean the steel also does.
Click to expand...
?Heat capacity.

I thought you knew physics? Did you not make that claim?
 
GlennB said:
Link please, as I'm unable to find any source that says that. This is no great surprise as it's wildly wrong, as you should have known. Even a candle burns much hotter than 600.



The time it takes will depend on the mass of water involved, as anybody with a grain of life experience will tell you. No science required, but for someone who claims to have an 'A' level (or similar) qualification in physics even to ask the question tells me they were lying about possessing the qualification.
Click to expand...

I never said I had A-Level Physics. Stop lying.

A quick google tells you: The hotness of the gas stove flame ranges from 600℃-3000℃ depending on two important factors. One of these important factors is the amount of energy beings released from fuel combustion, while the other important factor is the availability of pure oxygen rather than air to ensure complete combustion.
 
Vixen said:
No, the coach company Person A is Sweden who runs the ferry company jointly with Estonia.
Click to expand...


In that case your question substitutes Sweden for Person B.

ETA: I suppose the scenario now explains why Sweden would want to cover it up, but it entirely fails to explain why the ship was sunk in the first place.
 
Last edited:
Vixen said:
Does welding cause the following to happen, since you are so knowledgeable:

  • • the appearance of parallel shear bands (Neumann bands)
    • changes respectively destruction of the cementite lamellas in the perlite
    • hardness increase
    • plastic deformation in the micro area (wavy arrangement of the structure parts)

A simple yes or no will suffice.
Click to expand...
Dunno. How much have you learned in your trajectory as a psychologly/economics/accountaycy/physics/cosmology/forensisic science/metallurgy/legal expert?

Enough to operate as an internet expert? Or what?
 
Vixen said:
Most people over the age of 18 don't keep giving great emphasis on their academic qualifications.
Click to expand...

This is exactly why your dwelling on your own academic qualifications and your insistence that you are a scientist based on some courses you took 40 years ago is so abnormal. Did you once dream of becoming real scientist?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Back
Top Bottom