The Sinking of MS Estonia: Case Re-opened Part II

[whoanellie]

No dumber than someone who thinks applying a welding tool to solid steel will melt it.

You might want to look up the definition of the word "weld".

 

[whoanellie]

Oh. yes. I. am. Let that stick in your craw.

This is a sore point with you, isn't it.

 

[Mojo]

The only way out of that latest absurdity is for Vixen to ignore it. Don't expect an answer or retraction.

But perhaps an evasion, probably including a “Yorkshire homily”* or some other implication that it’s everyone else who hasn’t been paying attention.


*”a tedious moralizing lecture” - Concise OED.

 

[Vixen]

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=13614074#post13614074

I can't see where it says what you claim I said.

 

[Vixen]

You really aren't. You clearly have zero scientific knowledge. Please, prove me wrong. What is the null hypothesis?

Perhaps you should stick to Economics?

 

[Vixen]

Was a sample taken from the wreck to the university?

This isn't any sort of a loaded question. I'm curious, nothing more.

According to the article, the pieces from the bow visor were taken outside of Sweden to the Uni in Norway, is how I read it.

 

[junkshop]

Which is why she did not claim a "detonation" was the cause. That was your claim, based on the false equivalence between high temperatures and detonations.

Citation, please of the claim you are referring to.

Citation duly provided by JayUtah:

Here are a couple of stills from the film released by the Fokus group showing the parts they claim are deformed by what looks like 'very high heat' (=aka a detonation). This would confirm Brian Braidwood's own views from an earlier expedition.

I can't see where it says what you claim I said.

Look again, Vixen.

 

[Vixen]

You realize that having enough poison to kill 250k people is not the same as putting 250k people at risk.

There's a bit of poison ivy in my backyard. It contains, I'm sure, enough Urishiol to produce rashes in me and my neighbors for blocks around. I am nonetheless not putting my neighbors at risk just by "owning" that much Urishiol.

What? These guys left the stuff lying around. Some of it was in a perfume bottle, killing one woman - a member of the public whose boyfriend picked it up and gave it to her - and seriously injuring a policeman, as well as the intended victims. It is pure luck that the perfume bottle didn't get smashed thus contaminating anybody who even stepped on it. How anyone can interpret this reckless act as benign or of no great consequence is astonishing.

 

[Vixen]

Well, it would have been a non-sequitur but for the fact that you claimed such temperatures couldn't have been reached outside a laboratory. You made this relevant.

But, if you'd like to take that claim back and admit that you were wrong, I reckon everyone could drop the point that such temperatures are easily reached outside the lab.

That is the claim of the German Group of Experts.

 

[abaddon]

We use duct tape. Gaffer tape on set.

Amateur. We use our own spit.

 

[RolandRat]

How anyone can interpret this reckless act as benign or of no great consequence is astonishing.

I haven't seen anyone interpret it that way.

 

[abaddon]

Perhaps you should stick to Economics?

Sorry, I have lost track of the degrees you claim. Which one was this?

 

[GlennB]

That is the claim of the German Group of Experts.

That's a barefaced lie. The laboratory business was your claim.

 

[Vixen]

Welding works by melting the steel.

Look. Water boils at 100°C. If you have a gas stove, then the flame you are using is anything up to 600°C in intensity. Yet it takes at least 4 - 6 minutes to boil 1 pint of water.

How long do you have to point your arc welding cutter at a piece of thick reinforced steel to get it to melt? It certainly doesn't happen instantly.

 

[Vixen]

Welding works by reaching high enough temperatures to met the steel.

Steel plates for ship hulls, bow doors and car ramps are cut with gas flames or plasma cutters by melting the steel.

Yes, in a steelworks (= a laboratory equivalent).

 

[Mojo]

Amateur. We use our own spit.

We used to dream of having our own spit.

 

[Vixen]

OK, let’s see how we got here, as you have clearly forgotten.

You have been arguing that the Estonia was sunk by the Russians in order to “send a message” to whoever was smuggling either Russian secrets or Russian military equipment, and that this was then covered up by the Swedish government.

We then get this little exchange:






You are clearly suggesting that the ship was sunk by agents of the government that was doing the smuggling. We then get, as a response to my query about that:


I then asked why the Swedish government would want to cover that up, and we come to your irrelevant post to which I am now replying.

I ask again: why would the Swedish government cover up something that was done by the Russian intelligence services as a result of smuggling by the Russian government?

Stop being a clever dick. Deliberately changing key words to change the meaning of what was said isn't for me to bother correcting.

 

[Vixen]

Ah, this thread is the gift that keeps on giving!

Vixen has her performance down to a fine art by now, where repeated self-contradiction is merely a hand wave away from dismissal and intentional fabrication of quotes is a standard tool of the trade.

I think it's time for a re-cap. Estonia was sunk by:

• A minisub setting a limpet mine
• a sub colliding with it, with or without the minisub's participation
• from nuclear materials invoking a "chemical reaction" on the bow, causing it to weaken
• assisted by explosives
• whilst at least three foreign intelligence serviice had operatives running around the place, tatoooing people so they could shoot them
• whilst Russia cunningly block the distress freqeuncy in such a way that it happened for over a month in a non-specific way
• with exploisves that are either behave in known ways or in unusual ways, depending on whether it supports an argument

These are all theories put forward by various sources.

 

[LondonJohn]

Oh dear, oh dear, oh dear.

You don't understand the scientific concept of 'null hypothesis'.

Oh the deep, deep irony.

 

[Vixen]

I found out jet fuel cannot melt steel thanks to Rosie O'Donnell, now I learn from Vixen that welding torches can't either. Guess steel comes out of the ground in the exact shape engineers need them to be, and are superglued together?

What was claimed by the German Group of Experts - who subcontracted RN Military Explosives expert, Brian Braidwood - was that the type of deformations as analysed by three independent labs plus BAM - were likely only to have been caused artificially in a lab, which of course would include steelworks, a factory or a shipbuilders yard. It would not be due to every day wear and tear is the point they were making.