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The Sinking of MS Estonia: Case Re-opened Part II

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It is commonly accepted that Putin was a very senior very influential figure in the KGB. The figureheads you see written on paper, such as 'Head of MI5' or the Soviet Committee making up the KGB are just a bunch of suits who don't actually determine any of the action.

Do you have knowledge of how intelligence agencies work, yes or no? You're doing it again, talking about how you meow and purr but I should not dare say you're claiming to be a cat.

You managed to completely miss (or ignore) my actual point and focus like a laser on one small part of my post. Which you manage to misunderstand (or deliberately warp) anyway.
I actually corrected my statement about Putin being the head of the KGB so your spitefully continuing to claim I 'confidently' say this demonstrates deep dishonesty and bad faith on your part.

You know what the past tense is, right?

I said that you had confidently stated it. I know you retracted the statement, your continued efforts to claim that I am being dishonest are laughable.
 
She said it had been subjected to a temperature as high as 1,200°C. Captain_Swoop enquired as to whether she knew anything about welding or metal fatigue.

No, he enquired as to whether you knew anything about those things, whereupon you accused your critics out of the blue of being sexist. We doubt you do, since you already disavowed expertise in metallurgy. Nevertheless you're the one talking about explosives when the scientist in question hasn't drawn that conclusion.
 
Given the military cargo on board, as witnessed by two people, it would be quite standard to provide a military escort, especially if it it was highly sensitive material. So it is quite possible there was a Swedish submarine tracking it when the timed devices - if that is what they were - went off.
What was the submarine supposed to do?

If there was a military escort, why not just let the military carry the cargo instead of using a civilian service?

And of course how the hell would you know "it would be quite standard to provide a military escort"?
 
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Merely a demonstration of how easy it is to sink a ship.

No bombs needed.

If your theory is right and someone shot the captain, why would it be any more difficult to shoot whoever was on watch in the engine room?

How would you stop the crew checking the ship from finding your bombs?

If you read Linde's statement when he was interrogated in a prison in Helsinki year 2002, you'll note the interviewer keeps asking him whether he had witnessed a 'committee of men' arguing with the senior crew in various parts of the ship. So someone appears to have witnessed some kind of contretemps between officials and a 'committee of men', which the interrogator is trying to find out more.

'I know nothing' ~ Linde
 
If you read Linde's statement when he was interrogated in a prison in Helsinki year 2002, you'll note the interviewer keeps asking him whether he had witnessed a 'committee of men' arguing with the senior crew in various parts of the ship. So someone appears to have witnessed some kind of contretemps between officials and a 'committee of men', which the interrogator is trying to find out more.

'I know nothing' ~ Linde

People arguing on a sinking ship? One where the crew seem to have been lacking in their command and control of the situation?

You don't say?

How does that address my question?
 
What if Person A happens to be your own government?

But the people you claim to be the smugglers weren't part of the Russian government.

If my job was to stop it then I would still apprehend them. Why would I blow up a ship?
 
They sent a message to Skirpal and by association all defected Russian spies. ('You are not safe anywhere in the world.')

They made it obvious that is what they were doing.
there was nothing subtle about what they did.
 
We're not criticising Westermann, we're criticising your flights of fancy. We don't even know what part it was that she microscopically examined and we do know that parts of the lock were substantially reworked and welded.

Here's what has been reported so far:

Re the deformations:

In Karlskrona there is a storage room where cut away parts of Estonia are stored. The investigations carried out by the company VTT in 1994 are classified. No one from the Swedish Accident Investigation Board has examined the parts. Focus Estonia traveled down to Karlskrona and examined the parts for several days. With the help of our pictures from Muskö, we have managed to identify most of the material and find where they have been on the visor. Three parts are of particular interest as these have been close to where probable detonations have taken place. Parts show damage that may not have occurred due to impact with the forepeak [of the visor]. We want to have these parts examined.

Focus Estonia is advised not to hand in the parts to any Swedish institution, but instead hand them in to NTNU in Norway and to professor of metallurgy Ida Westerman, who directly states that the damage could not possibly have been caused by mechanical blows. The results also confirm changes in the steel. Studies show that the steel has been exposed to temperatures above 1200 degrees. We do not know if Estonia's visor was blown off before or after the accident.

Re the imputed mechanical blows:

Focus Estonia has had a photogrammetric 3D scan of Estonia's bow visor on Muskö outside Stockholm. In this work, we have carefully documented the entire visor and also the base plate. We have seen and documented things that no accident investigator from the Swedish Oats Commission has seen. And these are images that change everything.

According to the accident investigation, several large waves broke all the locks that held the whistle [visor?] in place. The final report states that the bottom plate of the visor is beaten hard and pressed in about 50 centimeters. But what we see is something completely different. Contrary to what the Accident Investigation Board claims, there are no contact marks at all after severe mechanical blows. Instead, you only see severe deformations where the base plate of the visor is pressed in 70 centimeters.

The Oats Commission does not even mention in the report that the base plate has been torn apart and pushed back closer to one meter. And with such force that the material has been torn apart. The power, speed and heat have been so enormous that the steel plate has caved over itself and most of the color has disappeared. You can compare the damage with the large dent on the front of the visor. This is a clear example of an injury caused by mechanical contact. There are no mechanical impact marks from the edges or tip of the forepeak of the visor. Instead, a very strong soft impression is visible. It becomes even clearer in the photogrammetric 3D model that we have had made. The absence of mechanical blows is even clearer when we remove the surface layer. <snip>

These damages could not possibly have been caused mechanically by the visor hitting the forepeak deck. These are injuries that have been caused by one or more detonations.
FOKUS Group press release
 
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No idea but the claim 'if there had been a device at the car ramp, Linde would have gone deaf' - if the bang he claims he heard and which he said caused a wave swell on the ship almost knocking him off his feet - ain't necessarily so.
Try again. In English please.
 
So no statements that you can point me to from the governments that they are going to audit the vehicles on the ship?

Things are done by press release.

TS has reported this today. Quote as earlier. This is a quality paper that checks its sources.

- Yesterday (September 28, editor's note), the Swedish Accident Investigation Board carried out its own photogrammetric 3D scan of the bow visor on Muskö, six months after we did ours. They will have the same pictures we have. They will not be able to explain the damage in any other way than what we did and which was confirmed yesterday by Professor Anders Ulfvarson, Professor Ida Westermann and former accident investigator Roland Carlsson, says Lars Ångström.
Fokus se.
 
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They sent a message to Skirpal and by association all defected Russian spies. ('You are not safe anywhere in the world.')
Yeah. They attacked him with a chemical weapon. If they had attacked him with something that caused diabetes or hypertension or prostate cancer so nobody thought it was anything but bad luck it would have been less of a message.

Sinking a ship in a way that most people think was just an accident is a similarly crappy "message".
 
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