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The Sinking of MS Estonia: Case Re-opened Part II

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Vixen said:
Think about it. Person A is carrying stolen military equipment of a foreign state on his passenger coach. The coach is sabotaged after several warnings by that foreign power to cease and desist. People get hurt.

Question: is Person A vicariously liable for putting his passengers' safety at risk?

If your loved one was one of the passengers would you consider suing Person A or is the fault 100% the foreign power?
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Why not just grab the person doing the carrying?
 
Vixen said:
Would this be the same kind gentle people who drop plutonium in the tea of dissidents and come to see the famous spires of Salisbury cathedral, coincidentally, where ex-KGB spies have abdicated to...? Those ones?
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Yes. Those people. The ones who did not drop a bomb on Salisbury to "send a message".
 
Vixen said:
They have analysed actual samples of metal from the bow visor. The Swedish government six months after Westermann is now also analysing it. So let's see if they get the same results, which of course they will as it is a science in which results can be replicated empirically.
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What is your evidence that the Swedish government is analysing the metal from the bow visor?
 
Captain_Swoop said:
Where are the official government statements that say they are going to do this?

How will they tell what is there in the jumbled mess of wreckage that will be in the car deck?

How will they get in among it to do this?

the ship went down stern first after turning on it's beam, all the vehicles will be jammed together in a tangled mess and will have decades of corrosion and sea life encrusting them.
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Turun sanomat is a serious broadsheet, like the GUARDIAN or the TELEGRAPH.

They do it by sending down small AUV's and as the ramp is now fully open, it might be relatively safe for divers to go in, as I believe early divers did.
 
Vixen said:
That is not so. I had a perforated eardrum from an airflight. I didn't know my eardrum was perforated until a doctor told me years later.
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Your personal experience of an injury you were not even aware you had suffered hardly covers the full range of hearing damage. Get real.
 
Captain_Swoop said:
So why mention him so often?

Would you blow up a ship you were traveling on in a storm?
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Put it this way. You are a patriotic Englishman working for the security services. You are given the task of monitoring British highly secret and sensitive defence secrets leaving the country and you discover this is being done regularly by a hostile foreign power.

How do you go about stopping it if missives to their diplomats fail and it is a threat to UK security?
 
Vixen said:
Maybe you should mansplain all of this to Professor Ida Westermann as I m sure all of this has never crossed her dumb air-filled head.
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We're not criticising Westermann, we're criticising your flights of fancy. We don't even know what part it was that she microscopically examined and we do know that parts of the lock were substantially reworked and welded.
 
MarkCorrigan said:
You've never made the specific statement "I am an expert in X", that is true.

However, you have made repeated declarative statements that you have confidently stated as accurate. You have infact stated confidently that you know how science is done, how scientists think and how you yourself are a scientist. You even stated as fact that Putin was head of the KGb and the Russian replacement service. You've made confident declarations as to what the Russian secret service would, could and indeed did do.

You have essentially stated that you are a small housepet that meows, catches mice, has whiskers and eats meat and fish, but then get offended when someone asks you if you're claiming to be a cat because of course you've not claimed that you're a cat.
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It is commonly accepted that Putin was a very senior very influential figure in the KGB. The figureheads you see written on paper, such as 'Head of MI5' or the Soviet Committee making up the KGB are just a bunch of suits who don't actually determine any of the action.


I actually corrected my statement about Putin being the head of the KGB so your spitefully continuing to claim I 'confidently' say this demonstrates deep dishonesty and bad faith on your part.
 
Vixen said:
Turun sanomat is a serious broadsheet, like the GUARDIAN or the TELEGRAPH.

They do it by sending down small AUV's and as the ramp is now fully open, it might be relatively safe for divers to go in, as I believe early divers did.
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Where are the official government statements that say they are going to do this?
 
Kid Eager said:
You mean the Professor, who despite her expertise in the field and close examination of the material did NOT draw the conclusion that explosives were used? *That* Professor Westermann?
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She said it had been subjected to a temperature as high as 1,200°C. Captain_Swoop enquired as to whether she knew anything about welding or metal fatigue.
 
Vixen said:
Put it this way. You are a patriotic Englishman working for the security services. You are given the task of monitoring British highly secret and sensitive defence secrets leaving the country and you discover this is being done regularly by a hostile foreign power.

How do you go about stopping it if missives to their diplomats fail and it is a threat to UK security?
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I wouldn't get on a ship and blow it up in a storm.

I would probably intercept the people doing the smuggling.

Would you blow up a ship you were traveling on in a storm?
 
Vixen said:
Put it this way. You are a patriotic Englishman working for the security services. You are given the task of monitoring British highly secret and sensitive defence secrets leaving the country and you discover this is being done regularly by a hostile foreign power.



How do you go about stopping it if missives to their diplomats fail and it is a threat to UK security?
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You arrest the smugglers?

Oh, no, wait. You follow them onto a plane or a ship or train or whatever and then destroy it with a bomb.

Is that it?
 
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Vixen said:
She said it had been subjected to a temperature as high as 1,200°C. Captain_Swoop enquired as to whether she knew anything about welding or metal fatigue.
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Which you didn't address. What temperature do you think is required to weld steel?

What does constant stressing and fatigue of metal do to it?
 
Captain_Swoop said:
So now you are back to the Swedish sub and not the Russian bombs?
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Given the military cargo on board, as witnessed by two people, it would be quite standard to provide a military escort, especially if it it was highly sensitive material. So it is quite possible there was a Swedish submarine tracking it when the timed devices - if that is what they were - went off.
 
Vixen said:
Given the military cargo on board, as witnessed by two people, it would be quite standard to provide a military escort, especially if it it was highly sensitive material. So it is quite possible there was a Swedish submarine tracking it when the timed devices - if that is what they were - went off.
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Why would it be standard to give it an escort? Why choose a sub to do it?

What was the escort supposed to do?

Why did it ram the Estonia?

If you are going to give it a military escort why not put it on the military ship?

Are you going back to a Swedish sub ramming by accident or are you sticking with the bombers?
 
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