Texas bans abortion.

[Olmstead]

I disagree. The anti-abortion crowd's vilifying of Sanger and, through her, of Planned Parenthood is demonstrative of their tactics to stop abortion rights. Like they're doing in TX.

And I don't think they should be humored. Whether a long-dead founder of an organisation makes for a good champion of its cause is kind of a crapshoot anyway.

It's not even a real tactic. It's preaching to the choir, so that everyone who already agrees with the premise gets to throw darts at simple targets. They will always find something Sanger did wrong.

 

[Stacyhs]

And I don't think they should be humored. Whether a long-dead founder of an organisation makes for a good champion of its cause is kind of a crapshoot anyway.

It's not even a real tactic. It's preaching to the choir, so that everyone who already agrees with the premise gets to throw darts at simple targets. They will always find something Sanger did wrong.

Of course they will always look for something they can misrepresent as Sanger having done something wrong.

I don't think they should go unchallenged with their lies because people don't tend to investigate for themselves what they read. Look at what Warp presented. It wasn't difficult to disprove what he posted but did he bother to investigate his source for accuracy before posting? No. This is the kind of thing that influences people's opinions on things.

 

[thaiboxerken]

I wonder if the anti-abortion crowd would be upset if they ordered a chicken dinner at a restaurant and was presented 3 eggs with a side of lettuce seeds and raw potatoes.....

 

[JoeMorgue]

I wonder if the anti-abortion crowd would be upset if they ordered a chicken dinner at a restaurant and was presented 3 eggs with a side of lettuce seeds and raw potatoes.....

Yes but the irony of it would remain lost of them, so it would do no good.

 

[Warbler]

Thing thing is, Warbler, that what you think SHOULD be considered sans any scientific support, or even contrary to science, is fine...for you. But thousands of women every year face this dilemma and they can make that decision for themselves following their own consciences according to Roe v Wade...unless some second or third party totally disconnected from them decides they believe they know best.

Just remember Roe v Wade says the government does have an interest in the third trimester or so I have been told in this thread. If the women were making a decision for themselves, I wouldn't want that interfered with. But in the of abortion they are also making that decision for the fetus/zygote/embryo.

That wasn't a 'fancy' argument; it was a logical one based on what 'separate' means. Yours is based on emotion and what you 'want' to believe.

Mother and child are not the same being.

That's exactly what you're doing. By saying that we should take into account that it will eventually develop into a sentient being, you want us to think of it as that future sentient being and not what is actually is.

No, I want you to think of the it as a non-sentient being that is developing into a sentient being. That is what it is.

So it's OK to take a non-sentient, non-viable, separate lifeform-person off life support by disconnecting their breathing tube and/or feeding tube but it's not OK to disconnect a non-sentient, non-viable, (in your opinion) separate embryo lifeform from its breathing/feeding tube aka placenta. Gotcha.

The person is brain dead and/or has no hope of recovery. The same is not true for a normal healthy fetus/zygote/embryo. Now if the fetus/zygote/embryo were shown to be unhealthy and would be born brain so something like that. I would not object to abortion in such a case.

I'm sorry to hear that. I also had to make that decision for my beloved Mother-in-law who was more of a friend than MIL. She had an unexpected cardiac embolism during a minor surgery and never regained consciousness. She was on life support for three days and she had left instructions that it was my decision what to do in such a situation. After conferring with several of her doctors, I said to disconnect her. She died within a couple minutes. The weird thing was that she had a premonition she was not going to survive this day surgery procedure that she'd already had twice before.

and I am sorry to hear about your Mother-in-law. It sounds like you made the right decision for your Mother-in-law.

 

[Warbler]

I am not against women's rights...but I am against women's rights.

Sure, that's what I've been saying.

 

[JoeMorgue]

I am not against women's rights...but I am against women's rights.

In my original comment I was more bringing light to the fact that his defense for everything is that he doesn't know.

 

[abaddon]

Unsurprising response. Laughable, especially considering your cited source.

Hitler was a pretty good guy, according to the American Nazi Party.

Odd that you endorse him, then.

And nice attempted Godwin.

 

[JoeMorgue]

BTW is there any news on the Supreme Court ruling on the Texas law?

 

[Olmstead]

Ah, it's like a stupid version of the trolley problem.

Is pushing this fat man in front of the egg to prevent conception better than dropping him onto the non-sentient embryo?

 

[Stacyhs]

Just remember Roe v Wade says the government does have an interest in the third trimester or so I have been told in this thread. If the women were making a decision for themselves, I wouldn't want that interfered with. But in the of abortion they are also making that decision for the fetus/zygote/embryo.





Mother and child are not the same being.




No, I want you to think of the it as a non-sentient being that is developing into a sentient being. That is what it is.





The person is brain dead and/or has no hope of recovery. The same is not true for a normal healthy fetus/zygote/embryo. Now if the fetus/zygote/embryo were shown to be unhealthy and would be born brain so something like that. I would not object to abortion in such a case.

We're going round and round with the same arguments and getting nowhere.
Now I know how the guys in the trenches in WWI felt.

and I am sorry to hear about your Mother-in-law. It sounds like you made the right decision for your Mother-in-law.

Thanks. It was very difficult and I still miss her very much after five years. We had an unusually close relationship for a MIL and DIL. She always said I was the daughter she never had...after 4 boys.

 

[Fast Eddie B]

I am not against women's rights...but I am against women's rights.

But only if they’re aliens???

 

[Warbler]

We're going round and round with the same arguments and getting nowhere.
Now I know how the guys in the trenches in WWI felt.

*sigh*

Thanks. It was very difficult and I still miss her very much after five years. We had an unusually close relationship for a MIL and DIL. She always said I was the daughter she never had...after 4 boys.

Sounds like you were both lucky to have each other. I think my Mom has that sort of relationship with my brother's wife. Mom only had sons.

 

[smartcooky]

You should look him up. Centauri culture as a whole is a sterling example of behaviors to avoid doing yourself.

Now you're just going confuse him!

 

[acbytesla]

I mean, if the soul enters the body at birth then being against abortion seems really mean to the unwanted child with totally overmatched parents. That soul probably would have been far better off waiting for the next one.

Soul? WhatTheHell is a soul?

 

[Roger Ramjets]

Soul? WhatTheHell is a soul?

It's the part of the human mind that is separate from the body and can exist without it. You know, the supernatural part that doesn't exist by definition, but theists believe in because they can't accept the reality of death.

But here's the funny thing. They say it enters the zygote at the moment of conception - but this 'soul' has no memory, no personality, no consciousness. If that is all you are before birth and after death then it is indistinguishable from being nothing at all - cold comfort for those who are about to die.

My father had Alzheimer's. Little by little his mind decayed until he forgot to eat and starved to death. At the moment of death 'he' had already ceased to exist - but theists say his 'soul' (with no memory, no personality, no consciousness) lives on. Let's say they are right. Well that 'soul' is not my father, it's a bit of unthinking supernatural dross that isn't worth anything compared to the health and happiness of actual living people.

 

[Warbler]

It's the part of the human mind that is separate from the body and can exist without it. You know, the supernatural part that doesn't exist by definition, but theists believe in because they can't accept the reality of death.

You sure that is why every single theist believes in an afterlife?

But here's the funny thing. They say it enters the zygote at the moment of conception - but this 'soul' has no memory, no personality, no consciousness. If that is all you are before birth and after death then it is indistinguishable from being nothing at all - cold comfort for those who are about to die.

Man, its funny that a non-theist(I don't know if you are atheist or agnostic but clearly you are not a theist) acts like he knows more about a soul than I do, who is a theist.

My father had Alzheimer's. Little by little his mind decayed until he forgot to eat and starved to death. At the moment of death 'he' had already ceased to exist - but theists say his 'soul' (with no memory, no personality, no consciousness) lives on. Let's say they are right. Well that 'soul' is not my father, it's a bit of unthinking supernatural dross that isn't worth anything compared to the health and happiness of actual living people.

I am very sorry your father had Alzheimers and that he has passed. I know it is very difficult watching a love one's mind get worse and worse all the while there is nothing you or anyone else can do about. My Grandmother, while she did not have Alzheimer's, also had her mental health decline little by little for years from the strong woman she was to someone whom wasn't even a mere shadow of her former self. The most difficult part was that she couldn't realize she was failing. She couldn't understand why she had to stop driving. She couldn't understand why she could no longer live alone. Sometimes, she didn't even know where she was. She would be in her house that had lived in for decades and ask to be taken home and could not except that she was already home. It was very difficult time for my family. It was especially difficult on my father. I don't think he ever fully got over what happened to her and her loss. I would like to think that they are in heaven, back in full health both physically and mentally, living happily with their Lord.

 

[Stacyhs]

"I would like to think that they are in heaven, back in full health both physically and mentally, living happily with their Lord."

And this is the reason people want a heaven, with a paternalistic "Father" figure to guide them and comfort them. The psychology behind theism isn't difficult to figure out.

Several years ago we had been reading "The DaVinci Code" in my book club. We had then talked about "what ifs" as in "what if Jesus was just a man and had, indeed, had children with Mary Magdalene and there were descendants, etc". One of our members had been very quiet and then suddenly erupted in tears with 'I don't care what you say, you can't take Jesus away from me!" She had a melt down because she simply could not even hypothetically consider the idea of Jesus not being the Son of God, etc. As Marx said, "Religion is the opiate of the masses".

 

[theprestige]

This is why I haven't bothered to ask the anti-abortion side what the net benefit of forcing children to be born into families that don't want them is supposed to be. I know we'd just get cherry picked example of "over coming."

That and because it's essentially an argument for post partum abortions, and the forcible euthanization of "useless mouths" generally.

The whole reason abortion plays is because of an entirely arbitrary line. The moment you start arguing that the line isn't arbitrary, you open a whole new can of worms. "We get rid of people we don't want" erases the line entirely.

 

[Stacyhs]

That and because it's essentially an argument for post partum abortions, and the forcible euthanization of "useless mouths" generally.
The whole reason abortion plays is because of an entirely arbitrary line. The moment you start arguing that the line isn't arbitrary, you open a whole new can of worms. "We get rid of people we don't want" erases the line entirely.