Sarah Everard Case: Policeman arrested and charged

[Bob001]

What I do not like is that the Met are putting the onus onto the public, not their own police officers. The police in general should be issuing an instruction to all police officers, which is then made public -

All plain clothes officers must

1 - be prepared to accept that many women are now legitimately frightened of the police & the police must be tolerant of and be prepared to take time to de-escalate panicked people.

2 - radio in that they are making an arrest and show the arrested person their radio and allow them to hear the call being made to the control room and any response from the control room.
.....

It seems like it would be reasonable for the bosses to require a plainclothes officer to summon a uniformed officer in a marked car to complete the arrest and transport the suspect. There might be exceptional circumstances where that wouldn't be practical, but a woman walking alone at night is hardly an imminent threat requiring immediate intervention.

 

[Andy_Ross]

If Sarah Everard had taken the new Police advice and called 999 to check if Wayne Couzens was a police officer, they would have confirmed he was.

 

[Nessie]

If Sarah Everard had taken the new Police advice and called 999 to check if Wayne Couzens was a police officer, they would have confirmed he was.

Even if it had been pointed out he was off duty, he could claim he was doing his duty and had put himself on duty.

 

[LondonJohn]

If Sarah Everard had taken the new Police advice and called 999 to check if Wayne Couzens was a police officer, they would have confirmed he was.

But it would probably have saved her life though. Even surely wouldn't have been sufficiently brazen/stupid as to have carried through with his kidnap/rape/murder/burn scenario if he knew he'd been positively identified before he was even able to put cuffs on her and place her in his car.


Also, bear in mind that the guidance applies to one person on his/her own, in plain clothes, who identifies as a police officer. Obviously, the chances of two officers acting in cahoots with each other to abuse their power in such a grotesque manner are way, way lower than with a single officer acting alone (and of course the chances of even a single officer acting in this way are already extremely, extremely low).

Plus in any case, I believe that for a long time it's been standard procedure - in London at least - for anyone stopped by a police officer in this sort of scenario to have the right to walk with them (if on foot) or drive (if in a car - with the officer following in his/her vehicle) to the nearest police station.

I believe that Sarah Everard could, had she been sufficiently aware and astute*, have made such a request of , and - had he been acting in accordance with proper procedures - he'd have had to comply with that request. Had he indicated non-compliance (as indeed he might have done in this instance), then Everard would have had the right to refuse arrest and to either phone for assistance or flag down a passing car, etc.


* But of course one of the (many) chilling factors of this awful crime is that Couzens would have known the immediate advantage he had over someone like Sarah Everard: that he was the authority figure in their interaction, and that - like many (even most) people - she would have found it very hard not to defer to his authority. On top of that, she'd have been experiencing fear and probably an element of panic at hearing she was being arrested, with all that that entails, and again this can push someone into a state of compliance. If there's one good thing that may have come out of this sick tragedy, it's that in future hopefully it will be very much more difficult for this sort of thing to happen again.

 

[Vixen]

The idea of him sitting around watching TV doesn't upset me. I know from pandemic stay-at-home time just how unsatisfactory that is when one can't go out and do anything else. And I was in my apartment, with all my stuff and the option to buy booze or whatever. This guy won't have ****. He will be in an austere setting full of criminals who hate cops. He will probably be in isolation. He will suffer, and he will have a lot of time to ponder his crime.

Will that help? I don't know. But for me, being locked up forever with nothing to do but think and watch garbage on TV sounds much worse than a quick death. I am against state-imposed death penalties in all cases, even if the primal soul within me thinks the person in question deserves to die. That is just an abstract thought I have. It should not and cannot dictate policy.

But I truly do think life in prison is a worse punishment, anyway.

It's my impression that life in solitary in the USA - for example, the Boston Marathon killer - is far harsher than anything in Europe or the UK, and in that case, such a prisoner has Hobson's Choice as to which is worse - life in solitary or a lethal injection?

The only things that makes me anti-capital punishment is the idea of the State being the executor and the risk of an innocent person being wrongly convicted and executed.

 

[junkshop]

The only things that makes me anti-capital punishment is the idea of the State being the executor and the risk of an innocent person being wrongly convicted and executed.

While it's not the only reason that I am against capital punishment, I would agree that the demonstrable fact that false/wrongful convictions happen is (for me) the strongest argument against it. How do you compensate someone you killed in error?

 

[Bob001]

I don't think there was anything she could have done (at the time). He used her knowledge of her breach of the pandemic laws, so she wouldn't initially have thought anything was suspicious about him detaining her and saying he was transporting her to a police station.
......

What "pandemic laws" could she have believed she was violating? Were cops routinely scooping people off London streets for not wearing masks, or what? Issuing a citation is one thing; cuffing somebody and hauling them away is way something else. Would she have thought that was normal practice?

 

[LondonJohn]

What "pandemic laws" could she have believed she was violating? Were cops routinely scooping people off London streets for not wearing masks, or what? Issuing a citation is one thing; cuffing somebody and hauling them away is way something else. Would she have thought that was normal practice?

Laws related to curfews and mixed households.

And (as I also discussed in my previous post) even if she thought it extreme and unwarranted that she was being cuffed and taken away, she was nevertheless being ordered to do so by somebody with ostensible authority and power - that can (tragically, in her case) constitute a very compelling situation to someone in her position.

 

[Planigale]

It seems like it would be reasonable for the bosses to require a plainclothes officer to summon a uniformed officer in a marked car to complete the arrest and transport the suspect. There might be exceptional circumstances where that wouldn't be practical, but a woman walking alone at night is hardly an imminent threat requiring immediate intervention.

My understanding is this is the law. Plain clothes officers can detain, or caution you, but the removal to a police station should be by uniformed officers (but can be in an unmarked police car), as should the formal arrest.

That being said, and even if she had known this, one can accept that it is much harder to stand ones ground, with him saying that this is resisting arrest and that is a much more serious offence, and that this does not apply with emergency legislation etc.

 

[Planigale]

But it would probably have saved her life though. Even surely wouldn't have been sufficiently brazen/stupid as to have carried through with his kidnap/rape/murder/burn scenario if he knew he'd been positively identified before he was even able to put cuffs on her and place her in his car.


Also, bear in mind that the guidance applies to one person on his/her own, in plain clothes, who identifies as a police officer. Obviously, the chances of two officers acting in cahoots with each other to abuse their power in such a grotesque manner are way, way lower than with a single officer acting alone (and of course the chances of even a single officer acting in this way are already extremely, extremely low).

Plus in any case, I believe that for a long time it's been standard procedure - in London at least - for anyone stopped by a police officer in this sort of scenario to have the right to walk with them (if on foot) or drive (if in a car - with the officer following in his/her vehicle) to the nearest police station.
I believe that Sarah Everard could, had she been sufficiently aware and astute*, have made such a request of , and - had he been acting in accordance with proper procedures - he'd have had to comply with that request. Had he indicated non-compliance (as indeed he might have done in this instance), then Everard would have had the right to refuse arrest and to either phone for assistance or flag down a passing car, etc.


* But of course one of the (many) chilling factors of this awful crime is that Couzens would have known the immediate advantage he had over someone like Sarah Everard: that he was the authority figure in their interaction, and that - like many (even most) people - she would have found it very hard not to defer to his authority. On top of that, she'd have been experiencing fear and probably an element of panic at hearing she was being arrested, with all that that entails, and again this can push someone into a state of compliance. If there's one good thing that may have come out of this sick tragedy, it's that in future hopefully it will be very much more difficult for this sort of thing to happen again.

I think the highlighted applies to citizen's arrests, not to police arrests. If you are stopped by a security guard accused of shop lifting who makes a citizen's arrest they do not have the right to detain you, but to escort you to the nearest uniformed) police officer or police station. Police officers have the power of pre arrest detention, (should be brief), arrest, and the right to transfer you if arrested to a police station where your arrest should be confirmed by the detention sergeant.

 

[Nessie]

My understanding is this is the law. Plain clothes officers can detain, or caution you, but the removal to a police station should be by uniformed officers (but can be in an unmarked police car), as should the formal arrest.

....

Not in Scotland. All a plain clothes officer has to do is show his/her warrant card. They can arrest and transport prisoners and do not need uniformed assistance. Bear in mind, detective constables do not wear uniforms, so are also plain clothes.

I am sure it is also the case in the rest of the UK.

 

[Darat]

What "pandemic laws" could she have believed she was violating? Were cops routinely scooping people off London streets for not wearing masks, or what? Issuing a citation is one thing; cuffing somebody and hauling them away is way something else. Would she have thought that was normal practice?

Lockdown, mixing households and non-essential travel for a non-exempt reason. There is no way she wouldn't have known that she was breaching the rules.

I suspect he thought the lockdown was an excellent opportunity for him to find a victim. It seems that she was his first victim (after he escalated his offending), if he hadn't been quickly apprehended I think he would have continued to murder more women.

 

[Darat]

My understanding is this is the law. Plain clothes officers can detain, or caution you, but the removal to a police station should be by uniformed officers (but can be in an unmarked police car), as should the formal arrest.

That being said, and even if she had known this, one can accept that it is much harder to stand ones ground, with him saying that this is resisting arrest and that is a much more serious offence, and that this does not apply with emergency legislation etc.

In or out of uniform (on active service) doesn't change the legal rights of detention, arrest and so on of a police officer.

 

[Andy_Ross]

Not in Scotland. All a plain clothes officer has to do is show his/her warrant card. They can arrest and transport prisoners and do not need uniformed assistance. Bear in mind, detective constables do not wear uniforms, so are also plain clothes.

I am sure it is also the case in the rest of the UK.

It's the same in England.

Rules are different for moving traffic offences though.

 

[Vixen]

I personally find it hard to believe Sarah consented to have her hands handcuffed behind her back. That doesn't even happen on television unless there's a lunatic involved. A passing witness saw her being cuffed but they didn't see the lead up to it. IMV Sarah Everard would have sensed immediately something was not right but he had the physical power to dominate and force her to bend to his will. She may have 'played along' in the hope she could reason her way out or that it would just be an assault of some sort and that if she stayed calm without antagonising him, she would eventually be able to flee home to her friends and family.

 

[Bob001]

Lockdown, mixing households and non-essential travel for a non-exempt reason. There is no way she wouldn't have known that she was breaching the rules.
.....

So people were getting arrested off the streets for breaching curfew? Not just fined? Was that happening anywhere else in the world? I shudder to think of what the response would have been in the U.S.

 

[Vixen]

While it's not the only reason that I am against capital punishment, I would agree that the demonstrable fact that false/wrongful convictions happen is (for me) the strongest argument against it. How do you compensate someone you killed in error?

Another reason to be against harsh punishment is that it just makes jurors more hesitant to convict someone for fear they may have got it wrong. At least when sentences are relatively light, as in northern Europe, when a person found guilty of a crime has to pay compensation to the victim, the guilty person is less likely to 'get away with it' and is hit in their pocket, even if the victim's relatives think the sentencing is too lenient.

 

[Bob001]

I personally find it hard to believe Sarah consented to have her hands handcuffed behind her back. That doesn't even happen on television unless there's a lunatic involved.
.....

No, that is pretty standard police procedure. Someone cuffed in front can still fight or grab a weapon. TV cop shows are not the best source of reliable information.

And sometimes even that doesn't work.

A 23-year-old man is suspected of stealing a Kansas Highway Patrol vehicle and leading officers on a chase with speeds topping 100 mph -- while handcuffed behind his back, officials said.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/crim...l-car-leads-cops-on-100-mph-chase/ar-BB1fiA2W

 

[Darat]

I personally find it hard to believe Sarah consented to have her hands handcuffed behind her back. That doesn't even happen on television unless there's a lunatic involved. A passing witness saw her being cuffed but they didn't see the lead up to it. IMV Sarah Everard would have sensed immediately something was not right but he had the physical power to dominate and force her to bend to his will. She may have 'played along' in the hope she could reason her way out or that it would just be an assault of some sort and that if she stayed calm without antagonising him, she would eventually be able to flee home to her friends and family.

As usual and thankfully your fantasies have no connection to reality.

 

[Darat]

Another reason to be against harsh punishment is that it just makes jurors more hesitant to convict someone for fear they may have got it wrong. ...snip...

What has that got to do with this case?