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Sarah Everard Case: Policeman arrested and charged

Butter! said:
I genuinely wish it to happen to him as well.

Everybody on here is always all hot to punch Nazis and Terfs, but say a violent rapist should hypothetically get raped, and the pearls are clutched until fingers turn blue. It's the same thing.

No one was even talking about prison rape this time. I don't like when people go that route, because such assaults shouldn't happen in a civilized country's prisons, regardless of what anyone in there may "deserve." But **** Couzens, he deserves worse, and I wish I believed in hell so I could believe he'll go there. Cowardly, perverted beast.
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I think you'll find that I'm not "hot to punch Nazis and Terfs" either.

And if you believe that things like Vixen's scenario should happen in retribution to people like Couzens, then maybe you should start lobbying your legislators to change the law accordingly.

Personally-speaking, I believe that the laws covering serious crimes such as murder (including the despicable aggravating factors in this particular murder) are pretty much just, proportionate, and appropriate for a country that considers itself a liberal democracy. I believe the "eye for an eye" stuff to be the province of biblical times and lawless states. YMMV.
 
Here's a question: How did this veteran cop, intimately familiar with all the resources available to one of the largest police departments in the world, imagine he would get away with this? There are CCTV pictures of him grabbing his victim, and minute-by-minute accounts of his whereabouts. He was arrested four days after the murder. Did he think nobody would care, or what?
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news...hows-movements-before-murdering-sarah-everard

Of course, the other question is how this guy with a history of weird misbehavior could remain a cop at all, let alone a member of an elite armed division.
 
LondonJohn said:
I think you'll find that I'm not "hot to punch Nazis and Terfs" either.

And if you believe that things like Vixen's scenario should happen in retribution to people like Couzens, then maybe you should start lobbying your legislators to change the law accordingly.

Personally-speaking, I believe that the laws covering serious crimes such as murder (including the despicable aggravating factors in this particular murder) are pretty much just, proportionate, and appropriate for a country that considers itself a liberal democracy. I believe the "eye for an eye" stuff to be the province of biblical times and lawless states. YMMV.
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He's 48. Realistically, he can expect to spend as much as 40 years living in a cage, contemplating the crimes that put him there. Unless he gets sent to some country club party prison, a life sentence might be worse than immediate death.
 
LondonJohn said:
I think you'll find that I'm not "hot to punch Nazis and Terfs" either.

And if you believe that things like Vixen's scenario should happen in retribution to people like Couzens, then maybe you should start lobbying your legislators to change the law accordingly.

Personally-speaking, I believe that the laws covering serious crimes such as murder (including the despicable aggravating factors in this particular murder) are pretty much just, proportionate, and appropriate for a country that considers itself a liberal democracy. I believe the "eye for an eye" stuff to be the province of biblical times and lawless states. YMMV.
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Yeah, but I am pretty sure Vixen wasn't saying that should actually be the law. Maybe she was, but I saw it as just an angry outburst, of which I have had several myself. This case made me see red. It's such a horrific story, and the fact that this absolute monster used BS about covid restrictions to subdue her makes it somehow even worse. It chokes me up, and it makes me want to say dark ****, and defend other people who let a dark remark fly.

If someone was raping him in front of me, I'd stop them, but I'd still think he deserved worse in my dark, nasty heart.
 
Vixen said:
Great to see the judge getting it right!

I feared he'd get the '30-year' tariff due to having no previous convictions (although he should have been done for indecent exposure several times) and 'only' one victim. Good the wig was able to exercise discretion in sentencing. I am willing to bet Couzens will be appealing against the 'whole life' tariff.

In a just world, Couzens should be snatched off the street and have his arms handcuffed behind his back with the key thrown away. Driven 80 miles in the pitch dark of night. Then he should be systematically tortured exactly in the same way as his victim, with the nasty most depraved sex criminal smirking as he takes his last breath.
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Nice revenge fantasy you have going there.
 
Does anyone want to speculate on what a citizen should do if she/he is approached by someone in plainclothes driving an unmarked car who claims to be a cop and demands that you submit to arrest? Could you insist that a uniformed officer be summoned? Could you call 911 and ask for help? Could you take a picture of him and his warrant card and send it to a friend? If you fight back and the guy turns out to be a real cop, is "I didn't believe him" a defense? I keep wondering if there's anything she could have done to save herself, and other than run I'm not sure there's a good answer.

Keep in mind that in the U.S. a real cop can shoot you in the back.
 
Butter! said:
I genuinely wish it to happen to him as well.

Everybody on here is always all hot to punch Nazis and Terfs, but say a violent rapist should hypothetically get raped, and the pearls are clutched until fingers turn blue. It's the same thing.

No one was even talking about prison rape this time. I don't like when people go that route, because such assaults shouldn't happen in a civilized country's prisons, regardless of what anyone in there may "deserve." But **** Couzens, he deserves worse, and I wish I believed in hell so I could believe he'll go there. Cowardly, perverted beast.
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Wishing rape upon them is pretty stridently against my principles... but I can certainly empathize with your sentiment.

On the other hand, I have no principle against removing a monster from the gene pool. I'd be quite happy with a quick, efficient, inexpensive capital execution.
 
Bob001 said:
Does anyone want to speculate on what a citizen should do if she/he is approached by someone in plainclothes driving an unmarked car who claims to be a cop and demands that you submit to arrest? Could you insist that a uniformed officer be summoned? Could you call 911 and ask for help? Could you take a picture of him and his warrant card and send it to a friend? If you fight back and the guy turns out to be a real cop, is "I didn't believe him" a defense? I keep wondering if there's anything she could have done to save herself, and other than run I'm not sure there's a good answer.

Keep in mind that in the U.S. a real cop can shoot you in the back.
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This is, actually, what I think lay at the core of my really freaking out over this story. What the heck should we even do to protect ourselves from such things?

I will attempt to find the information, but I suspect it varies wildly by location.
 
The thing about his whole life sentence means he now gets to sit in front of a TV all day watching Antiques Road Show, Pointless, Bargain Hunt and Strictly Come Dancing. He can order books from the library. He can take a degree course.

Of course an eye-for-an-eye is not the answer. There is something very very wrong with the Met that thinks indecent exposure by a serving officer is nothing to take action about. There is also the story about the under-cover 'spy cops' who thought it OK to 'infiltrate' innocuous special interest groups and set up home and family with women under false pretences before disappearing to their real wife and kids. There was no supervision or code of conduct, as if the Met thought this behaviour wasn't anything inappropriate.
 
Emily's Cat said:
Wishing rape upon them is pretty stridently against my principles... but I can certainly empathize with your sentiment.

On the other hand, I have no principle against removing a monster from the gene pool. I'd be quite happy with a quick, efficient, inexpensive capital execution.
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I don't wish it upon him, I just wish people wouldn't sanctimoniously jump all over little hypothetical expressions of rage. People need to say ****** up **** sometimes, it helps to process negative feelings. I would put money on Vixen not actually desiring a society where rapists are punished by rape. Rather, she is thinking about the horror the victim went through, all just so that parasite could blow a load. It makes one want to express rage, and here we are, in a safe textual medium to do so. People who act like they can't understand that bug me sometimes.

There's a big difference between such comments and sordid, twisted descriptions of revenge fantasies like a certain former poster here was famous for compiling.


ETA - The truth is, I probably need an internet break. With the pandemic on top of my already being kind of an introvert, I have spent too much time online. I basically now recognize certain "tropes" in almost any discussion, and it makes me feel irritable, frustrated, and somehow claustrophobic too. Like the world is too small somehow. And too restricted. I don't mean because we can't say racial slurs, I mean because abstract ideas can become taboo in large virtual settings. I need a net and news break. I am turning into someone with a fractured, brooding psyche that I don't properly understand.
 
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Bob001 said:
Does anyone want to speculate on what a citizen should do if she/he is approached by someone in plainclothes driving an unmarked car who claims to be a cop and demands that you submit to arrest? Could you insist that a uniformed officer be summoned? Could you call 911 and ask for help? Could you take a picture of him and his warrant card and send it to a friend? If you fight back and the guy turns out to be a real cop, is "I didn't believe him" a defense? I keep wondering if there's anything she could have done to save herself, and other than run I'm not sure there's a good answer.

Keep in mind that in the U.S. a real cop can shoot you in the back.
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Yes.

There is official police advice that you should not be arrested on a police stop by plain clothes officers. You should refuse to accompany someone who is out of uniform claiming to be a police officer. (Or even who is a police officer.) Officers in unmarked cars who do stops will be in uniform.

https://www.askthe.police.uk/content/Q587.htm

ETA
I am not sure calling 911 would help in the UK where one needs to call 999!
 
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Vixen said:
The thing about his whole life sentence means he now gets to sit in front of a TV all day watching Antiques Road Show, Pointless, Bargain Hunt and Strictly Come Dancing. He can order books from the library. He can take a degree course.
.....
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Does the UK have anything like a SuperMax?
Depending on which unit they are in, prisoners spend at least 20, and as many as 24-hours per day locked alone in their cells. The cells measure seven by 12 feet and have solid walls that prevent prisoners from viewing the interiors of adjacent cells or having direct contact with prisoners in adjacent cells.
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https://www.thoughtco.com/adx-supermax-overview-972970

I doubt that prison anywhere is much like a college dorm.
 
Couzens will be in a segregation unit, probably on Rule 45 being both a sex offender and ex-police, as he won't be safe in general population. This can limit his access to other things, especially as resources for study have been cut since 2010 (I know a couple of prison teachers - it's just the same as most of the public sector with "austerity" having been an excuse to cut budgets) and it is well documented that there are shortages of prison officers who would supervise other activities: it's not going to be a bed of roses.

Thus far, it hasn't been publicly revealed which of the Category A high security prisons he'll be in, but take your pick from: Belmarsh, Frankland, Full Sutton, Long Lartin, Manchester, Wakefield, Whitemoor and Woodhill. Frankland seems to get more than its share of real nasties, but my view my be distorted by it being near Durham and folk I went to school with having worked there and stories about it appearing in local press.
 
Bob001 said:
Does anyone want to speculate on what a citizen should do if she/he is approached by someone in plainclothes driving an unmarked car who claims to be a cop and demands that you submit to arrest? Could you insist that a uniformed officer be summoned? Could you call 911 and ask for help? Could you take a picture of him and his warrant card and send it to a friend? If you fight back and the guy turns out to be a real cop, is "I didn't believe him" a defense? I keep wondering if there's anything she could have done to save herself, and other than run I'm not sure there's a good answer.

Keep in mind that in the U.S. a real cop can shoot you in the back.
Click to expand...

I don't think there was anything she could have done (at the time). He used her knowledge of her breach of the pandemic laws, so she wouldn't initially have thought anything was suspicious about him detaining her and saying he was transporting her to a police station. She was probably in too much of a turmoil to initially realise it was not an unmarked police car she was put in.

Apparently, the Met is saying that all out-of-uniform police will now work in pairs, if this is so it is a good thing (obviously not perfect), they are also telling people they can request a call into the control centre to confirm the duo are in fact police, again a good thing (but obviously not perfect).
 
The idea of him sitting around watching TV doesn't upset me. I know from pandemic stay-at-home time just how unsatisfactory that is when one can't go out and do anything else. And I was in my apartment, with all my stuff and the option to buy booze or whatever. This guy won't have ****. He will be in an austere setting full of criminals who hate cops. He will probably be in isolation. He will suffer, and he will have a lot of time to ponder his crime.

Will that help? I don't know. But for me, being locked up forever with nothing to do but think and watch garbage on TV sounds much worse than a quick death. I am against state-imposed death penalties in all cases, even if the primal soul within me thinks the person in question deserves to die. That is just an abstract thought I have. It should not and cannot dictate policy.

But I truly do think life in prison is a worse punishment, anyway.
 
Bob001 said:
Does anyone want to speculate on what a citizen should do if she/he is approached by someone in plainclothes driving an unmarked car who claims to be a cop and demands that you submit to arrest? Could you insist that a uniformed officer be summoned? Could you call 911 and ask for help? Could you take a picture of him and his warrant card and send it to a friend? If you fight back and the guy turns out to be a real cop, is "I didn't believe him" a defense? I keep wondering if there's anything she could have done to save herself, and other than run I'm not sure there's a good answer.

Keep in mind that in the U.S. a real cop can shoot you in the back.
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The best indicator a cop is not acting legitimately, is do they have a radio and/or body worn video? Radios and BWV are issued on duty, and cops rarely get to take them home (they may have to if they are reporting on duty the next day to another office). They are certainly not authorised for use off duty.

An arrest that is radioed in, is a legitimate arrest, as the cop has informed the control room of his/her change of status. If the cop has not radioed in and refuses to do so, then it would become reasonable to consider resisting arrest.
 
Darat said:
I don't think there was anything she could have done (at the time). He used her knowledge of her breach of the pandemic laws, so she wouldn't initially have thought anything was suspicious about him detaining her and saying he was transporting her to a police station. She was probably in too much of a turmoil to initially realise it was not an unmarked police car she was put in.

Apparently, the Met is saying that all out-of-uniform police will now work in pairs, if this is so it is a good thing (obviously not perfect), they are also telling people they can request a call into the control centre to confirm the duo are in fact police, again a good thing (but obviously not perfect).
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What I do not like is that the Met are putting the onus onto the public, not their own police officers. The police in general should be issuing an instruction to all police officers, which is then made public -

All plain clothes officers must

1 - be prepared to accept that many women are now legitimately frightened of the police & the police must be tolerant of and be prepared to take time to de-escalate panicked people.

2 - radio in that they are making an arrest and show the arrested person their radio and allow them to hear the call being made to the control room and any response from the control room.

3 - if they have body worn video, they must have it on and show that it is on to the arrested person.

Until the Met accept the change comes from police behaviour and they stop advising the public to modify their behaviour, then change is not going to happen.
 
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