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Discussion: Transwomen are not women (Part 7)

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That doesn't actually describe any of the dissenters in this thread. We're all pro-mask, pro-vax around here. You're arguing with rational skeptics who agree with you on a wide range of important issues. There's no need to demonize us and pretend you're debating a wild strawman. You must have better arguments than that!

Hmmm…. I guess it depends on the extent to which you agree with the proposition “I oppose transgender rights”. If it describes you and you also support mask mandates and vaccine mandates then I guess the Venn diagram is not a perfect fit.
 
And I want to also say that in many of these threads I click a link and having read about some freak out at a school board meeting I really have to remember what thread we are in because it is just true that anti-trans, anti-CRT, anti-mask mandates and anti-vaccine mandates really, really do seem to go together. I mean these seem way, way more hysterical than some of the “campus freak outs” that we are told are on the verge of ending civilization.
 
And I want to also say that in many of these threads I click a link and having read about some freak out at a school board meeting I really have to remember what thread we are in because it is just true that anti-trans, anti-CRT, anti-mask mandates and anti-vaccine mandates really, really do seem to go together. I mean these seem way, way more hysterical than some of the “campus freak outs” that we are told are on the verge of ending civilization.
This thread isn't about any of that, though. Now you really are posting in the wrong place. This is the thread for addressing the arguments made in this thread. It's not the thread for addressing arguing somewhere else entirely.
 
Hmmm…. I guess it depends on the extent to which you agree with the proposition “I oppose transgender rights”.

I don’t think anyone here opposes transgender rights. And there is quite broad agreement about what many of those rights are, for example, no discrimination in housing or employment.

There are disagreements at the edges about exactly how far those rights go, for example participation in sports. But the position that transwomen should not generally compete against ciswomen is not anti-trans any more than the position that cismen should not compete against ciswomen is anti-male.
 
Hmmm…. I guess it depends on the extent to which you agree with the proposition “I oppose transgender rights”.

As Zig says, it's likely nobody here opposes transgender rights.

Though I admit that while I support transgender rights as I understand them, I'm agnostic about the rights you imagine I might oppose. Mainly because I don't know what those rights are supposed to be.

What transgender rights, exactly, do you think I might oppose? If you list them, I'll go down the list and tell you plainly which ones I oppose if any, and why.
 
Then EC is right. You're absolutely posting in the wrong thread. This is the thread for debating the idea proposed in the thread title. The beliefs and behaviors of antimaskers somewhere else is wildly off topic.

I'm still very interested in your idea of trans rights, though.

I’ll post an excerpt from the article. It seems to me that it is relevant to the thread:

Nearly 260 people had signed up to speak at the meeting where board members were set to discuss the adoption of a school policy that would require school staff and other students to address gender-expansive or transgender students by their chosen names and gender pronouns. The draft policy would also allow transgender students access to school facilities and activities that correspond to their gender identity.

So are they opposing transgender rights? Why, yes they are! What else did they feel like protesting that day…?

However, many of the people in the audience used the meeting to protest against teaching critical race theory in Loudoun County schools — despite previous assurances from school board officials that it was not being taught in classrooms.

It’s interesting that these things go together. Why that is, I just don’t know.

Interesting to see them all massless and screaming as well. Probably a coincidence.

Anyway, it seems interesting to me that the discussion went….

AS: strange that anti CRT and anti-transgender rights seem to go together and also hand in hand with opposition to mask and vaccine mandates.
Emily’s Cat and theprestoge: we’re not anti-mask or anti-vaccine.
Zig: we’re not anti-transgender either.
The prestige: oh yeah, that too! (Must have forgotten) who’s anti-transgender rights?
 
Major developments on the sporting front

Trans women retain physique, stamina and strength advantages when competing in female sport, even when they reduce their testosterone levels, new guidelines for transgender participation in national and grassroots sport published by the UK sports councils will say on Thursday.

The long-awaited report argues there is no magic solution which balances the inclusion of trans women in female sport while guaranteeing competitive fairness and safety. And, for the first time, it tells sports across Britain that they will have to choose which to prioritise.
https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2021/sep/29/new-guidelines-for-transgender-participation-unveiled-by-uk-sports-councils

Actual reports
https://equalityinsport.org/resources/index.html

As a result of what the review found, the Guidance concludes that the inclusion of transgender people into female sport cannot be balanced regarding transgender inclusion, fairness and safety in gender-affected sport where there is meaningful competition. This is due to retained differences in strength, stamina and physique between the average woman compared with the average transgender woman or non-binary person assigned male at birth, with or without testosterone suppression.
 
Thank you for this. Unfortunately sport means very little to so many of the trans activists in this thread.


My own considerations regarding transwomen in women's sports at a non-elite levei*, which I've stated a few times previously in this thread, are almost exactly in line with these proposals.

But transgender people should (with conditions and caveats, as here) be allowed to live their lives in keeping with their gender identity.


* And as I've also stated many times here before, I don't believe transgender people should be allowed to compete at elite level representing their trans gender.
 
My own considerations regarding transwomen in women's sports at a non-elite levei*, which I've stated a few times previously in this thread, are almost exactly in line with these proposals.

But transgender people should (with conditions and caveats, as here) be allowed to live their lives in keeping with their gender identity.


* And as I've also stated many times here before, I don't believe transgender people should be allowed to compete at elite level representing their trans gender.

Women injured at non elite levels is an issue to me, but carry on.
 
Women injured at non elite levels is an issue to me, but carry on.

Those considerations do depend on the sport involved. At one extreme is actual combat sports, and there safety should be a really high priority. Somewhere in the middle are sports like soccer, which are nominally not contact sports but where the possibility of collision and injury are high enough to be a safety concern. And then there are sports like tennis where collision is almost impossible, so safety isn't really an issue. Fairness still is, of course.
 
My own considerations regarding transwomen in women's sports at a non-elite levei*, which I've stated a few times previously in this thread, are almost exactly in line with these proposals.

ie
At school and sub-elite levels, transgender people (IMO) should be allowed to compete (should they so wish) within the gender group which most closely matches their trans gender.


However today's publications differ:
This guidance is intended to support domestic UK sport, which we determine as any sport where there is meaningful competition at a community to national level
As a result of what the review found, the Guidance concludes that the inclusion of transgender people into female sport cannot be balanced regarding transgender inclusion, fairness and safety in gender-affected sport where there is meaningful competition
 
Women injured at non elite levels is an issue to me, but carry on.


As I said, my own considerations regarding transwomen in women's sports at non-elite levels are almost exactly in line with these new recommendations - including the proposals wrt contact sports etc. For example, I don't think transwomen or transgirls should have the automatic right to play women's rugby at a non-elite level: in fact, in these sorts of sports I believe the starting point should be that transwomen/girls should not be allowed to participate.

(But I hold that for running, high-jump, javelin, rowing, fencing, etc...... transwomen/girls should be allowed to compete in the women's/girls' categories at a non-elite level)
 
I hold that for running, high-jump, javelin, rowing, fencing, etc...... transwomen/girls should be allowed to compete in the women's/girls' categories at a non-elite level
Wouldn't that policy lead to a fairly predictable outcome? Trans girl excels at rowing throughout school/college, doesn't make the Olympic squad, trans rights activists lose their minds over the unfairness of it all.
 
Hmmm…. I guess it depends on the extent to which you agree with the proposition “I oppose transgender rights”. If it describes you and you also support mask mandates and vaccine mandates then I guess the Venn diagram is not a perfect fit.

You've moved the goal post. Not supporting a mandate is not the same as being anti-mask or anti-vax. I support wearing masks and getting vaccinated, and I encourage everyone to do so. I also support making masks or vaccines required in order to engage in certain activities.

On the other hand, I definitely don't support the rhetoric that has shown up alongside vaccine mandates, suggesting that people who don't get vaccinated shouldn't be allowed to access needed health care, or should be denied the right to a livelihood, or should otherwise be abused.

On the same note, I don't think any person in this thread would EVER say "I oppose transgender rights". Hell, I would go so far as to say that we all support transgender rights. Where we disagree, however, is on whether or not what is being demanded is actually a 'right' to begin with, and what should be done when the entitlements being demanded conflict with the rights and safety of other people, as well as how to determine whether a person appropriately qualifies for those entitlements.

Consider, for example, that we all support the rights of disabled people to fair treatment in employment and housing, the right to not be discriminated against or be subject to abuse or harassments, and the entitlement of disabled people to reasonable accommodations for their disability so that they can participate fully in society.

But... we also all allow that there are going to be some situations where a person's disability does preclude them from participation, and we try to accommodate that as best as possible. For example, I don't think we would require a professional sports team to allow a paraplegic to play quarterback in the name of inclusion, would we? And we wouldn't think it appropriate to require an electric company to allow someone with cerebral palsy to work on power lines, as it would represent a danger to them and to everyone else.

Additionally, we don't allow people to self-identify as disabled. We grant certain entitlements to people with disabilities: preferential parking spaces, accessibility ramps, accessibility stalls in restrooms and showers, subsidization to alter homes to allow for safety and access, Preferential seating at large venues for wheel-chair users, and often the ability to skip lines to gain access to services or venues. We don't allow self-declaration of disability, because those entitlements place an obligation on other people, and it would be unfair both to genuinely disabled people and to those supporting the entitlement if we allowed easy access for disingenuous people to game the system.

If a person says that having disability rights were contingent on proof of a disability and not reliant solely on self-declaration, and that even so having a disability still precludes some activities... do you think it would be reasonable to cast those people as "anti-disability", or to suggest that they "oppose disability rights"?
 

That seems reasonable. Their general guidelines provide three suggested classifications for sporting teams:
Sports are also given three potential paths they might consider. They are prioritising transgender inclusion; protecting the female category by having open and “female-only” categories; establishing new formats by adapting rules to include non-contact versions of team sports so that everyone can play.

That seems like a very workable solution.
 
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