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Texas bans abortion.

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Yes, these women had sex.

Damn sluts.

They should have kept their legs together :rolleyes:

Those are your words, not mine.

But to pretend like the fetus just hijacked their womb and created a hostage situation is just ridiculous.

You already know that I do not support this TX law, and am not entirely against abortion.
 
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Those are your words, not mine.

But to pretend like the fetus just hijacked their womb and created a hostage situation is just ridiculous.

You already know that I do not support this TX law, and am not entirely against abortion.

Doesn't matter. It's still squatting inside a woman against her consent. It is using her womb, using her bloodstream, taking nourishment from her, putting a toll on her kidneys, her liver, her uterus and her body against her will.

Otherwise you're punishing her for spreading her legs.
 
No, as an American, I believe rights come from nature.

As an American, I do not believe rights come from any Creator or from nature. Additionally, I can give a logical argument why they don't:
1. Throughout the vast majority of history, the idea that rights come from any Creator or Nature did not exist. That was a philosophy that arose during The Enlightenment, specifically John Locke's Second Treatise, which our Founding Fathers were part of.

2. Throughout history, it was a governing body of people or a governing person that exclusively granted any 'rights' to any members of society, be that a monarch, Parliament, Congress, or Council.

3. Do you see the Law of Nature or a Creator giving those 'rights' to North Koreans, the Chinese, the Russians, or the Cubans?

Give me a logical reason or piece of evidence that "rights" come from nature or a Creator.


It is a declaration of the ideas of what America is all about. It is a declaration that rights do not come from a king or government, but from nature.

No, it is a declaration of independence. The title is a hint. The rest is a justification for that based on their beliefs. "Look! God and Nature are on our side!"

If nature and a Creator give rights, then why did the writers of the Constitution need to spell them out in a legal document? Take the supernatural and a personified "Nature" out of it and the Constitution would be just as legal and effective.
 
Tell that to founding fathers whom wrote that rights come from nature.

Many of the Founding Fathers also owned slaves. They didn't give women equal rights. Were they right about that? The FF are not sacrosanct or demigods. They were not perfect. They disagreed with each other. They could be...and were...wrong about some things. Take them off a pedestal.
 
Many of the Founding Fathers also owned slaves. They didn't give women equal rights. Were they right about that?

Perfectly acceptable for the day, I believe. Viewing history through a modern lens distorts everything.
 
Perfectly acceptable for the day, I believe. Viewing history through a modern lens distorts everything.

HELL NO,!

It was and is and always will be an abomination and a scourge against humanity.

The idea that it was ever right to own human beings as property is bs. Even Jefferson despite owning hundreds of slaves knew this
 
It is not a legal one, but it is a founding document, by definition. It is where we declared we were a separate country. That is why we consider America' birthday July 4th, 1776 and not June 21, 1788 (when the Constitution was ratified) or March 4, 1789 (When the Constitution went into effect)

So what? The Declaration is really a Declaration of War. It was written by Thomas Jefferson who was a Deist and not a Christian. Jefferson meant something entirely different about creator than anyone going to church. Jefferson believed that while there was a creator, it did not involve itself in anyone's life.

Also, this was before Darwin, Pasteur, Einstein, Hubble, radiometric dating and the most of the scientific revolution. There isn't a shred of evidence of creation much less a mystical magical being that created everything.

What does it matter that ignorant farmers of the 18th century wrote anyway. It doesn't make it right.
 
and I keep pointing out that I agree that under the law as it now stands, technically fetuses have no rights. But whether or not one has certain rights, is more complicated than whether or not the law recognizes said rights. History is replete with situations where people obviously had rights that governments didn't recognize and violated.

Really? Give me some of these examples that "history is replete with".
Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
And no one speaks "for the fetus"; anyone who claims to be doing so is speaking for the benefit of their own agenda.

if you say so.

That is not a counter argument. Who claims to "speak for the fetus"? Why, that would be people who are anti-choice and want to make abortion illegal. That is their agenda and therefore, claim to "speak for the fetus". Did the fetus appoint them as spokesperson? I don' thin' so, Lucy.

Yes, the declaration says "creator", but the word "nature" has be substituted for those that do not believe in God.

Not true. As explained earlier, that idea is a construct of the Enlightenment and, specifically, John Locke. Locke most certainly believed in God and that one could not be really moral or ethical unless one accepted a Supreme Being. He believed the laws of nature were 'as God intended'. He was not tolerant of atheists and believed atheists should not be given equal protection under the law. Nothing was 'substituted' for atheists.




Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
Which is exactly what they did in the Bill of Rights. MAN granted them, not some "Creator"
actually the concern that the Bill of Rights would make it look like man, and not nature, granted the rights caused some to be opposed to the bill of rights. It is why they were put in amendments are weren't put in the Constitution when it was originally drafted.

I'm sorry, but your speaking out of ignorance. That was not a concern of those who opposed the Bill of Right. I suggest you do some research. The opposition to a Bill of Rights was because they feared any rights specifically not enumerated would, by default, NOT be rights. Therefore, Madison included that Rights were not restricted only to those in the B of R in the 9th Amendment .
 
You should go back in time and advocate for George III. Again you are going against what America stands for. America stands for the idea that rights come from nature or a creator, not from a King or man or government.

Then why did our FF's...who were neither the Creator, or "Nature"... feel the need to write these "rights" down in a legal document called the Constitution upon which our GOVERNMENT IS FOUNDED?

Are you now going to tell us that America stands for "All men are created equal" when our FF did not mean that at all? " All men" were white men and most assuredly not Black men or women of any color whatsoever.
 
because they realized some might ignore the ideas in the Declaration. Some were opposed to the creation of the bill rights because it would look like government was given the people theses and could therefore take them away, instead of them coming from nature.

Nonsense. Please do some actual research.
 
I have known people in the past who worked in an organization that provided counselling for pregnant women. This is what they have found.

Perhaps they should also do some research about the possibility of trauma caused by aborting the fetus. I just find it difficult to believe they would experience all that much trauma giving up the baby for adoption when they were ready to abort same some months ago. It just doesn't make sense to me.
 
In discussing rights, there are two general classifications.

From Wikipedia:

Natural rights and legal rights are the two basic types of rights.

Natural rights are those that are not dependent on the laws or customs of any particular culture or government, and so are universal, fundamental and inalienable (they cannot be repealed by human laws, though one can forfeit their enjoyment through one's actions, such as by violating someone else's rights). Natural law is the law of natural rights.

Legal rights are those bestowed onto a person by a given legal system (they can be modified, repealed, and restrained by human laws). The concept of positive law is related to the concept of legal rights.


Some of the debates here stem from each party referring to a different type.

Whether 'natural' or 'legal' the idea of anyone having 'rights' is a human construct. It does not come from some Creator or Nature.

Show me anywhere in the non-human animal kingdom where an animal has any 'rights'. Not even among primates does an individual have "rights".
 
Originally Posted by Warbler View Post
Tell that to founding fathers whom wrote that rights come from nature.

Many of the Founding Fathers also owned slaves. They didn't give women equal rights. Were they right about that? The FF are not sacrosanct or demigods. They were not perfect. They disagreed with each other. They could be...and were...wrong about some things. Take them off a pedestal.

Perfectly acceptable for the day, I believe. Viewing history through a modern lens distorts everything.

Which has zero to do with my reply to Warbler's post. But I suspect you know that, Capt. Obvious.
 
Perhaps they should also do some research about the possibility of trauma caused by aborting the fetus. I just find it difficult to believe they would experience all that much trauma giving up the baby for adoption when they were ready to abort same some months ago. It just doesn't make sense to me.

That it doesn't make sense to you is irrelevant.
 
As an American, I do not believe rights come from any Creator or from nature. Additionally, I can give a logical argument why they don't:
1. Throughout the vast majority of history, the idea that rights come from any Creator or Nature did not exist. That was a philosophy that arose during The Enlightenment, specifically John Locke's Second Treatise, which our Founding Fathers were part of.

Tell me something, do you believe slavery was a violation of rights? How bout the denial of the vote to women for so long? At the time those things were going on, the government didn't recognize the rights of African Americans or the right of women to vote. Under the logic that rights only come government, since the government didn't recognize those rights, we would have to conclude that slavery did not violate any rights, nor did the denial of the vote to women. Unless, rights are more complicated than just what the government does and does not recognize.

2. Throughout history, it was a governing body of people or a governing person that exclusively granted any 'rights' to any members of society, be that a monarch, Parliament, Congress, or Council.

If rights come from those entities, it follows they can be taken away from those entities. It would also follow that those entities could never be guilty of violating your rights. After all the rights only come from them and therefor if they say you don't have the rights, you don't. Right? Unless rights are something more complicated than whether or not a given government recognizes them.

3. Do you see the Law of Nature or a Creator giving those 'rights' to North Koreans, the Chinese, the Russians, or the Cubans?

I believe the Chinese, Russians, and Cubans have certain inalienable rights and that their governments are violating their rights. Or do you think their rights are not being violated?

Give me a logical reason or piece of evidence that "rights" come from nature or a Creator.

As I said above if they rights only given to us by government, we can't complain when they take those rights away. They can simply say to us, "you only have what rights we tell you have".

No, it is a declaration of independence. The title is a hint. The rest is a justification for that based on their beliefs. "Look! God and Nature are on our side!"

It is a declaration of the idea that rights do not come from the King, they are above the King, and the King was violating those rights and therefore we justified our revolution.

Our whole revolution and country is based on the idea that rights do not come at the mercy of government, or the king, they come from above, from a creator or nature. If the government fails to recognize those rights, it is the right of the government to change such government.

If nature and a Creator give rights, then why did the writers of the Constitution need to spell them out in a legal document? Take the supernatural and a personified "Nature" out of it and the Constitution would be just as legal and effective.

As I have said previously, some of the founders didn't like the idea of spelling them out in the Bill of rights, they were concerned it would like they were coming from the government and not the creator or nature. But others wanted them spelled out.
 
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