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Discussion: Transwomen are not women (Part 7)

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Myriad said:
"I think Ronald Reagan's policies did long-term harm to the U.S."

"Your ally John Hinckley clearly agrees with you!"
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Call it a hunch, but I very much doubt there's much acrimony between the loudest anti-trans voices in this country and outright open fascists.
 
Emily's Cat said:
I don't call it a hunch. I call it a malicious insinuation intended to poison the well.
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The anti-trans voices in this country could distance themselves from the far-right at any time. The fact that they often chose not to is telling.

Whether it's cheering on a bunch of fascists clubbing people in front of Wi Spa or cheering on the ADF Christian domionists suing a school, transphobes seem more than willing to let the extreme right do the heavy lifting in their crusade against trans rights.

ETA:
Butler's comments regarding the common alliance between TERFs and far-right extremists are pretty short, so I've copied them below:

Q: It seems that some within feminist movements are becoming sympathetic to these far-right campaigns. This year’s furore around Wi Spa in Los Angeles saw an online outrage by transphobes followed by bloody protests organised by the Proud Boys. Can we expect this alliance to continue?

A: It is very appalling and sometimes quite frightening to see how trans-exclusionary feminists have allied with rightwing attacks on gender. The anti-gender ideology movement is not opposing a specific account of gender, but seeking to eradicate “gender” as a concept or discourse, a field of study, an approach to social power. Sometimes they claim that “sex” alone has scientific standing, but other times they appeal to divine mandates for masculine domination and difference. They don’t seem to mind contradicting themselves.

The Terfs (trans exclusionary radical feminists) and the so-called gender critical writers have also rejected the important work in feminist philosophy of science showing how culture and nature interact (such as Karen Barad, Donna Haraway, EM Hammonds or Anne Fausto-Sterling) in favor of a regressive and spurious form of biological essentialism. So they will not be part of the coalition that seeks to fight the anti-gender movement. The anti-gender ideology is one of the dominant strains of fascism in our times. So the Terfs will not be part of the contemporary struggle against fascism, one that requires a coalition guided by struggles against racism, nationalism, xenophobia and carceral violence, one that is mindful of the high rates of femicide throughout the world, which include high rates of attacks on trans and genderqueer people.

The anti-gender movement circulates a spectre of “gender” as a force of destruction, but they never actually read any works in gender studies. Quick and fearful conclusions take the place of considered judgments. Yes, some work on gender is difficult and not everyone can read it, so we have to do better in reaching a broader public. As important as it is, however, to make complex concepts available to a popular audience, it is equally important to encourage intellectual inquiry as part of public life. Unfortunately, we are living in anti-intellectual times, and neo-fascism is becoming more normalized.
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https://web.archive.org/web/20210907130940/https://amp.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2021/sep/07/judith-butler-interview-gender
 
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SuburbanTurkey said:
Call it a hunch, but I very much doubt there's much acrimony between the loudest anti-trans voices in this country and outright open fascists.
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I dunno. From where stand, it seems like the outright open fascists have nothing but acrimony for the "anti-trans" voices. But you're probably thinking of "nazis", and not the actual totalitarian statists of the American political landscape.
 
theprestige said:
I dunno. From where stand, it seems like the outright open fascists have nothing but acrimony for the "anti-trans" voices. But you're probably thinking of "nazis", and not the actual totalitarian statists of the American political landscape.
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How else would you describe the gaggle of right wing freaks wielding clubs and shields outside the Wi Spa who just so happen to also attend every other right wing protest/street fight in the area?
 
theprestige said:
I dunno. From where stand, it seems like the outright open fascists have nothing but acrimony for the "anti-trans" voices. But you're probably thinking of "nazis", and not the actual totalitarian statists of the American political landscape.
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SuburbanTurkey said:
How else would you describe the gaggle of right wing freaks wielding clubs and shields outside the Wi Spa who just so happen to also attend every other right wing protest/street fight in the area?
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Um... he just told you how he would describe them.
 
"Gaggle of right-wing freaks" seems fine to me, if a little partisan and uncharitable. On the other hand, the way I throw around epithets like "totalitarian statist", I probably shouldn't throw stones on that point.
 
Ziggurat said:
Um... he just told you how he would describe them.
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Point of order: The scare quotes are there for a reason. I wouldn't describe them as nazis. My reference is a callback to the recent discussions about being allowed to indulge in political violence against someone if you can somehow make a spurious connection between them and "nazism". Note, again, the scare quotes.

But I doubt even the actual modern neo-nazis aren't as heavily into totalitarian statism (i.e., "fascism") as the modern socialist-communist left is.
 
Ziggurat said:
Um... he just told you how he would describe them.
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Point of order: The scare quotes are there for a reason. I wouldn't describe them as nazis. My reference is a callback to the recent discussions about being allowed to indulge in political violence against someone if you can somehow make a spurious connection between them and "nazism". Note, again, the scare quotes.

But I think even the actual modern neo-nazis aren't as heavily into totalitarian statism (i.e., "fascism") as the modern socialist-communist left is. Modern neo-nazism seems to be more about racial purity and pseudolibertarian ethnostates, than about establishing a thousand-year reich. World takeover is pretty much #leftistpoliticalgoals at this point. This is probably because of how thoroughly nazism has been marginalized, and how thoroughly communism has... not been marginalized.
 
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SuburbanTurkey said:
Man who was charged for assaulting a journalist with a club at the Wi Spa fascist/anti-trans rally also under investigation for engaging in violence at other fascist rallies.

He is accused of laying in wait and attacking a prominent local activist outside a courthouse. Also participated in a local Jan6 rally in which he allegedly attacked a counter-protester.



https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2021-09-22/lapd-arrest-suspect-wi-spa-attack

Simmons had been identified in these prior attacks for some time now, but I guess it takes a lot for LAPD to care about right wing violence.

Anti-trans crusaders find themselves with some strange allies.
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Every side in every political debate has extremists on their side. You've got some wackos on your side of the political fence, too. Although we are not yet certain, until more evidence is presented, Darren Merager himself is sure looking like someone who isn't exactly the most appealing representative for the trans rights cause. We'll see.....assuming more information is forthcoming.
 
Anyway, hearkening back to the top of this page, I'd much rather see a definition of "man" and "woman" from the trans-inclusionist side.

Hard mode: Isn't just a reinforcement of gender stereotypes as social constructs.

Nightmare mode: Isn't just biological transsexualism.

Impossible dream mode: Has a practical application in public policy and/or personal interactions, beyond preferred pronouns.*

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*Which aren't really a practical application.
 
SuburbanTurkey said:
The anti-trans voices in this country could distance themselves from the far-right at any time. The fact that they often chose not to is telling.
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1) Not anti-trans, please stop using that defamatory and insulting term. It's right up there with calling pro-choice people 'pro-abortion'.

2) How exactly do you propose that females speaking out for female rights accomplish this purity task you've demanded?

SuburbanTurkey said:
ETA:
Butler's comments regarding the common alliance between TERFs and far-right extremists are pretty short, so I've copied them below:



https://web.archive.org/web/20210907130940/https://amp.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2021/sep/07/judith-butler-interview-gender
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Yes, I'm well aware of Judith Butler's denigration of females who complained about a register sex offender.

Those are the comments that were REMOVED from the Guardian article because the Guardian, with more common sense than they usually show, didn't want to be associated with someone defending the criminal and blaming the victims.
 
Emily's Cat said:
1) Not anti-trans, please stop using that defamatory and insulting term. It's right up there with calling pro-choice people 'pro-abortion'.

2) How exactly do you propose that females speaking out for female rights accomplish this purity task you've demanded?



Yes, I'm well aware of Judith Butler's denigration of females who complained about a register sex offender.

Those are the comments that were REMOVED from the Guardian article because the Guardian, with more common sense than they usually show, didn't want to be associated with someone defending the criminal and blaming the victims.
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WRT 1, control of the language is important. Especially so when one cannot control the reality it describes- and is trying to assert a negation of that reality.

WRT 2, case in point. I would wager that a proportion in excess of 99% of females lack the ability to intelligently express any idea.
 
Distracted1 said:
WRT 1, control of the language is important. Especially so when one cannot control the reality it describes- and is trying to assert a negation of that reality.

WRT 2, case in point. I would wager that a proportion in excess of 99% of females lack the ability to intelligently express any idea.
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:jaw-dropp

I'm trying to find a charitable way to interpret this, but I'm struggling. Did you seriously just suggested that 99% of females are total dumbasses?
 
Emily's Cat said:
:jaw-dropp

I'm trying to find a charitable way to interpret this, but I'm struggling. Did you seriously just suggested that 99% of females are total dumbasses?
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Suggest? I blatantly asserted that a percentage of females in excess of 99% lack the cognition to address any of the issues discussed herein in an intelligent manner.

My cat certainly cannot.
And she is every bit as entitled to the label "female" as you are.
 
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Distracted1 said:
Suggest? I blatantly asserted that a percentage of females in excess of 99% lack the cognition to address any of the issues discussed herein in an intelligent manner.

My cat certainly cannot.
And she is every bit as entitled to the label "female" as you are.
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oh,
my simple solution of swapping the man/woman signs to male/female signs causes a bigger problem then.
There will be half of Noahs ark in the bathrooms and the worms and stick insects will be feeling left out.
 
p0lka said:
oh,
my simple solution of swapping the man/woman signs to male/female signs causes a bigger problem then.
There will be half of Noahs ark in the bathrooms and the worms and stick insects will be feeling left out.
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I am not sure what problem you would be solving with that exchange. Other than clearing things up for "boys" and "girls".
 
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