The Sinking of MS Estonia: Case Re-opened Part II

[Jack by the hedge]

The viewpoint (of the ROV) is from below the waterline of the vessel looking downwards to the car deck floor.

Please explain how you come to the view that the viewpoint is from below the waterline. If you look into the gap and see the vehicle deck (indicated by the presence of a vehicle) then the straightforward conclusion is that you are looking through a hole in the hull at the level of the vehicle deck.

 

[Jack by the hedge]

If there is a massive 22m by 4m hole ...

"If".

 

[junkshop]

Please explain how you come to the view that the viewpoint is from below the waterline. If you look into the gap and see the vehicle deck (indicated by the presence of a vehicle) then the straightforward conclusion is that you are looking through a hole in the hull at the level of the vehicle deck.

Unless the vehicle was washed off the vehicle deck by the sprinklers, and ended up in the swimming pool, with all the towels!

 

[JayUtah]

...with all the towels!

...and the nuclear waste.

 

[Matthew Best]

It's obvious it's below the water line. You can tell by all the water.

 

[Andy_Ross]

Compare and contrast it to the US vessel SS Park Victory which sank near Utö, Finland, on Christmas Eve 1947, after failing to anchor properly. It drifted out to about six times before it hit a rock and sank.

The first time divers - or at least an official entourage, together with some contemporaneous Finnish sailors who were there 1947 to help the rescue - went down to view the wreck and film it was circa 1997. More recently, 2012,it was carefully filmed again. You can see from the pictures the type of deformation damage cause it by the rocks and then compare them to what we see in the Estonia.



and

How is that comparable? It ran aground and was pounded to bits on the rocks.

 

[Andy_Ross]

No, I am saying compare and contrast. You can see curled up bits of the hull on the SS Park Victory where presumably there was an explosion in the engine room.


This is different from stress caused by shifting over the years?

It was a steamship. the 'explosion' will have been the boilers bursting when the cold water entering the ship came in to contact with the glowing hot steel of the boiler.
Being scalded to death by escaping steam is another delight for engine room crew on a steam ship if they don't get when it is obvious the pumps can't keep up with any flooding.

How is it remotely comparable with the Estonia?

 

[Andy_Ross]

Here's a picture of SS Park Victory hull where we know there is a hole either where it hit a rock or there was an explosion in the engine room.

It looks nothing like the damage on estonia. Par Victory was pounded on rocks when it ran aground and has been on the seabed for 70 years.

 

[abaddon]

WHOA! We only have expert opinion based on an impression from the video. There is a long way to go before establishing anything concrete.

Wrong. Because according to you...

Do have a look at Jutta Rabe's film 'Baltic Storm' 2013 on youtube: I think she pretty much nails it.

Rabe knows exactly what happened.

On the one hand, you claim nobody can tell at all. On the other hand, you claim Youtube knows for a fact.

Grow up.

 

[abaddon]

...and the nuclear waste.

Ever seen Alien? See how it's blood melts through everything.

That is what our proponent thinks nuclear waste is.

 

[MarkCorrigan]

What hole exactly am I attempting to dig myself out of?

Are you claiming that the muzzle velocity of a cannon is the same as the velocity of the cannonball in flight, yes or no?

Are you high? At no point in my post did I say anything about Paldiski. I made two very specific points, neither of which was about Paldiski.

Captain_Swoop asked what happened in Paldiski.

I asked how nuclear waste could destroy the ships bow and if you know what nuclear waste is.

I don't want you flitting to another topic before answering me Vixen.

 

[junkshop]

I don't want you flitting to another topic before answering me Vixen.

[TEALEAVES]I see disappointment in your future.[/TEALEAVES]

 

[Matthew Best]

[TEALEAVES]I see disappointment in your future.[/TEALEAVES]

That should be:

[fx TEALEAVES]

 

[junkshop]

That should be:

[fx TEALEAVES]

Oops, my bad. I guess I know nothing about internet abbreviations.

 

[Axxman300]

Compare and contrast it to the US vessel SS Park Victory which sank near Utö, Finland, on Christmas Eve 1947, after failing to anchor properly. It drifted out to about six times before it hit a rock and sank.

The first time divers - or at least an official entourage, together with some contemporaneous Finnish sailors who were there 1947 to help the rescue - went down to view the wreck and film it was circa 1997. More recently, 2012,it was carefully filmed again. You can see from the pictures the type of deformation damage cause it by the rocks and then compare them to what we see in the Estonia.

No, I will not compare the Estonia wreck to a different kind of ship which sank under different conditions.Not again. This is all nothing but point-data, and it all has to be assembled with the rest of the information collected. I should add that this is a parallel investigation and not the new official investigation, which will be completed next year.

You are runing wild with partial information that you have already proven you are in no way capable of understanding or interpreting.

 

[Mojo]

Don't forget, the ship is upside down so the vehicle axel is by looking downwards, thus, below the waterline.

 

[LondonJohn]

"The film, shot this summer during the official inspection of the wreck of the "Estonia" ferry resting at the bottom of the Baltic Sea, shows serious damage to the hull. Deformations may indicate an explosion, Swedish Radio (SR) reported on Monday." - A Polish Newspaper reports today.

So, to get this straight: this is a report in a Polish newspaper, regarding something reported on a Swedish radio station, regarding something to do with the recent official inspection of the wreck?

I see........

 

[LondonJohn]

No, I am saying compare and contrast. You can see curled up bits of the hull on the SS Park Victory where presumably there was an explosion in the engine room.


This is different from stress caused by shifting over the years?

No. The interpretation in the case of the Estonia is that the damage to the starboard hull occurred when the ship first impacted with the seabed on the night it sank.

The ship would have had tremendous momentum and kinetic energy as it approached the seabed that night - all of which had to be converted/dissipated as it hit the seabed.

The wreck then shifted position at one or more points over the intervening 25 years, exposing the damage to the hull and the part of the seabed which caused that damage (and whose topology closely matches the damage to the hull). It's likely that as the ship shifted its position, the damaged area of the starboard hull - particularly the plate joints - were subject to stress fractures/tears.

 

[LondonJohn]

What caused the bow visor to become detached? A few strong waves, or were the crew pissing about with the car ramp, welding equipment, gas canisters and slegehammers, as on previous occasions? We don't know.

We do know. The bottom lock failed. The investigators found conclusive evidence of failure due to the combination of metal fatigue and high stresses (both cumulatively and on the night of the sinking).

 

[LondonJohn]

Swedish Radio is like the BBC so I wouldn't call it secondary. This is a current affairs thread you know, hence the reporting in the mass media is relevant.

You don't know what "secondary source" means, then. *shakes head slowly*