The Sinking of MS Estonia: Case Re-opened Part II

[Vixen]

So the Russian ship BALTIYSKIY ISSLEDOVATEL is located currently:

Position Received: 2021-09-25 16:07 UTC
1 minute ago
59.12897° / 21.63049°
Vessel's Local Time:
2021-09-25 18:07 LT (UTC +2)

Marine Traffic


The wreck is located at: 59° 23' N 21° 42' E



BALTIYSKIY ISSLEDOVATEL:


Area: BALTIC - Baltic Sea

Current Port: -

Latitude / Longitude: 59.12897° / 21.63049°

Status: Underway using Engine

Speed/Course: 8.3 kn / 226 °

 

[JayUtah]

That is all Bjorkman as I see it is trying to do. Get people to think for themselves.

Emphatically no. I debated Björkman at considerable length at another forum I frequent. My qualifications are equivalent to his. And on the topic we were debating, my domain expertise far exceeded his. He had absolutely no interest in what other people were thinking or why, and demonstrated no desire that other people should think for themselves if it meant contradicting him. He pursued only one goal: for people to think what he told them to think, and to thank him profusely for it. As has been said before, he maintained -- in all seriousness -- a million-euro bounty for anyone who could prove him wrong. Of course this was done many times, but of course he never had the money and never paid up, because he could never admit that he was wrong even when evidence was staring him in the face. The prize was evidently maintained to stroke his ego by thinking that no one could refute him despite being highly motivated to do so.

You don't know anything about Anders Björkman. Many of us do. He is simply not a credible source.

 

[Vixen]

I can see you're now backpedalling a bit yet you still can't quite admit there was no fire alert.

Fact: Witnesses heard the 'Mr Skylight' message on the tannoy. That means someone triggered the fire alarm. That person who made the tannoy likely switched on the Drencher fire sprays.

It may have been a false alarm but it was definitely triggered.

 

[Jack by the hedge]

I was not tasked with investigating the accident. Many people contacted the JAIC to let them know of their experiences with the vessel from the POV of poor maintenance. As many of these related specifically to the JAIC star theory of the bow visor, then it should have at least investigated the numerous reports of recent past failings.

They concluded the visor did in fact break off and caused the ship to founder. Maybe it's best that they got tasked with investigating rather than you, or we'd still be searching for phantom submarines.

 

[Jack by the hedge]

Fact: Witnesses heard the 'Mr Skylight' message on the tannoy. That means someone triggered the fire alarm. That person who made the tannoy likely switched on the Drencher fire sprays.

It may have been a false alarm but it was definitely triggered.

This is wrong.

 

[MarkCorrigan]

How many times must it be repeated? Mr Skylight was NOT the fire alarm. Mr Skylight was the general purpose alarm which only meant a fire when followed by the actual fire alarm.

 

[Vixen]

No see, you've missed my point yet again. At this stage I really have to wonder if it's deliberate.

If it isn't, let me break down this wall'o'text "response" to my point and show you where you go wrong. Multiple times.


Firstly the specifics of the error are not the point. I picked something that was obvious because it's one of the things I know about Finland that I knew there would be absolutely no controversy over.

The point is that you are treating Bjorkman, who is no longer a respected engineer, the same way the fictional person in my hypothetical treats Jonsson. This person is an expert, therefore he is right.

Of course it gets worse if you actually know anything about how badly Bjorkman mangles engineering in support of his lunatic theories. He does the equivalent of claiming that the Finns speak Flemish on a regular basis. In some ways it's worse than the hypothetical because at least Flemish is a real language.


Again you've missed the point. I'm directly comparing your attitude towards Bjorkman, whose failures in his crackpot theories rely on him not being a competent engineer.

Someone quoting Icke as an expert on the Royal family does almost exactly the same thing that you are doing with Bjorkman. The only real difference is that Bjorkman was at one point actually capable (presumably).

Nope. I know exactly the example you are using and you have it exactly wrong. Specifically you have it completely the wrong way around.

What actually happened with Lysenko is that Stalin wasn't happy with the theory of evolution because it had been discovered by a decadent Westerner and not a noble Soviet. So when a crackpot called Lysenko suggested an alternate theory of Evolution, despite it being totally insane and very, very wrong, Stalin jumped all over it like white on rice because it was a SOVIET idea. He wasn't regarded as right because he was the establishment, he was pushed into being the establishment because Stalin was a total lunatic.

Please, stop trying to talk about Soviet history when you clearly know little about it. It's getting embarrassing now.


Nope. He's a deluded weirdo. You seem to forget that many in this thread, myself included, have actually TALKED to this guy. He used to post here until he got banned. He was 100% totally serious with his physics defying abuses of engineering. He's a crackpot. He fails as an engineer. He's not an authority on anything.



Assuming multiple facts not in evidence. Are you now claiming that the CIA helped cover up...whatever it was that happened with the Estonia?

No, but again you're missing the point. We aren't claiming Anders Bjorkman is wrong on Engineering because his knowledge of and abuse of cooking (or something equally irrelevant) is wrong, we are claiming his ideas on engineering are wrong because he has a track record, including on this very forum, of being spectacularly, indefensibly wrong on engineering.

I am not familiar with the guy and have always been loathe to talk about someone behind their back when I know nothing about them. The fact he is banned may mean he has a personality disorder or has anger management issues or maybe he was even bullied off by a clique of people who see it as their job to shut people down. I don't know. I am not even interested in this guy. He is not here to defend himself.

Let's get back to the topic.

 

[Mojo]

The very fact that you even claim this to be the correct number.... just goes to show how horribly lacking in physics comprehension your posts truly are.

(Hint: cannonballs do not travel faster than the speed of sound. Rifle bullets? Yes. But cannonballs? Not even close.)

Maybe the cannonballs were fired underwater, where the speed of sound is much greater.

 

[LondonJohn]

Fact: Witnesses heard the 'Mr Skylight' message on the tannoy. That means someone triggered the fire alarm. That person who made the tannoy likely switched on the Drencher fire sprays.

It may have been a false alarm but it was definitely triggered.

Holy crap. Do you still not understand?

"Mr Skylight" was not a fire alarm. It was a general alert.

You continuing to claim it referred specifically to a fire alarm - in the face of all the evidence to the contrary - does not make it true. But I have little doubt at this point that you'll carry on gaily with your fingers wedged firmly in your ears. So bizarre.

 

[Jack by the hedge]

From the JAIC report, section 4.4.2 on alarm signals:

Fire alarm
The fire alarm - continuous repetitive short sound signals - was also given with the alarm bells and/or the vessel's horn.

https://web.archive.org/web/20040626015133/http://www.onnettomuustutkinta.fi/estonia/index.html

 

[JayUtah]

I am not familiar with the guy and have always been loathe to talk about someone behind their back when I know nothing about them.

And then you proceed to speculate about him. Don't suddenly pretend you're the noble party.

I am not even interested in this guy. He is not here to defend himself.

He doesn't have to be. You're defending him, knowing absolutely nothing about him, while insisting that we accept him as an expert when we do know much about him.

Let's get back to the topic.

Just as soon as you agree that you aren't in as good a position as your critics to know whether your source is reliable, and agree to stop quoting from it.

 

[LondonJohn]

I am not familiar with the guy and have always been loathe to talk about someone behind their back when I know nothing about them. The fact he is banned may mean he has a personality disorder or has anger management issues or maybe he was even bullied off by a clique of people who see it as their job to shut people down. I don't know. I am not even interested in this guy. He is not here to defend himself.

Let's get back to the topic.

But you are "interested in this guy", Vixen: you keep using him as an authoritative source wrt the many & various Estonia conspiracy theories.

If you're truly not interested in him, then quit quoting him. Deal?

 

[Vixen]

The very fact that you even claim this to be the correct number.... just goes to show how horribly lacking in physics comprehension your posts truly are.

(Hint: cannonballs do not travel faster than the speed of sound. Rifle bullets? Yes. But cannonballs? Not even close.)

According to this page in Naval Military History it was:

Weighing in at 3.5 tonnes and capable of firing at a muzzle velocity of 487 metres per second, these vast cannon were the most important and imposing naval armaments of the age of sail.

They were loaded with different types of shot depending on the type of damage they were intended to cause. Grape-shot would be sprayed in clusters along the length of the opposing ship to bring down large numbers of enemy personnel, while a plain 32-pound cannon ball was used to punch holes through the wooden walls of the enemy’s ship, sending shards of splinters flying like shrapnel through the lower decks. There was also bar-and-chain shot, which would be sent spinning through the air to slice the rigging or bring down masts. In an age when decisive manoeuvres were governed by the ficklest of wind changes, ripped sails or a fallen mast would leave you immobile and a sitting target.

https://www.military-history.org/fact-file/the-broadside.htm

Seems The Maritime Museum has not yet gone metric.

ETA Sound can travel in air at approximately 332 metres per second. So it was 'faster than sound' at its maximum.

 

[MarkCorrigan]

I am not familiar with the guy and have always been loathe to talk about someone behind their back when I know nothing about them. The fact he is banned may mean he has a personality disorder or has anger management issues or maybe he was even bullied off by a clique of people who see it as their job to shut people down. I don't know. I am not even interested in this guy. He is not here to defend himself.

Let's get back to the topic.

You are the one who is trying to use him as a legitimate expert. His expertise IS a part of the topic unless you would care to retract your use of him?

This is the thing that you share with your friend jabba, if the going hots up on one issue, flit away to another one and claim that the issue you're getting schooled on is not "the topic" or that people who are pointing out where you are wrong is being "mean" or "callous" and hoping that you can let the heat die down long enough to later bring the idea you're running away from back and hope that we won't notice.

You have claimed, repeatedly, that Anders Bjorkman is a reliable expert "witness" for want of a better word and have invoked him repeatedly in the thread. You do not now get to try and pretend that his expertise is not relevant when you are the one who made it so. Either deal with the criticism of your source if you can or ditch the source and stop using him and we will stop discussing his obvious inadequacies. You can't try to have your cake and eat it.

 

[Vixen]

From the JAIC report, section 4.4.2 on alarm signals:


https://web.archive.org/web/20040626015133/http://www.onnettomuustutkinta.fi/estonia/index.html

We were talking about coded messages to crew and staff.

 

[Vixen]

By the way, 900 mph = 402 metres per second, so I was right about that particular cannonball.

And it is faster than sound so that highlights LondonJohn's ignorance about physics.

Q.E.D.

::

 

[MarkCorrigan]

By the way, 900 mph = 402 metres per second, so I was right about that particular cannonball.

And it is faster than sound so that highlights LondonJohn's ignorance about physics.

Q.E.D.

::

Oh my god this is embarrassing. Muzzle velocity is not the same as velocity of the projectile in flight.

 

[LondonJohn]

By the way, 900 mph = 402 metres per second, so I was right about that particular cannonball.

And it is faster than sound so that highlights LondonJohn's ignorance about physics.

Q.E.D.

::

LOL those numbers are referring to muzzle velocity. Which, for a round cannonball in a smooth-bore cannon with a sabot, is something of a meaningless number. But good try!

 

[Jack by the hedge]

We were talking about coded messages to crew and staff.

No. You were taking about fire alarms. Mr Skylight was not the fire alarm.

The very next paragraph in 4.4.2 talks about coded alarms.

“Mr Skylight”
Without alarming the passengers, the crew could be alerted over the public address system with the coded message “Mr Skylight”. This message could also be used with a suffix. Depending on which suffix was used, selected parts of the safety organisation were activated. The boat groups were activated by all Skylight messages.

It then describes the various alarm groups in section 4.4.3
Spoilered for concision as it's a bit long.

4.4.3 Alarm groups

The safety organisation was led by a command group mustering on the bridge. The command group consisted of the master, the chief engineer, the chief officer, the chief purser and the third officer.
The master was the overall commander of the operations. The chief engineer was the fire chief, commanding the two fire groups and the engine control group. The chief officer was responsible for stability calculations and was also the deputy fire chief. He commanded the port and starboard lifeboat groups, the first aid group and the helicopter groups. The chief purser was responsible for evacuation, the evacuation groups reporting to him through forward and aft zone leaders. The third officer's main responsibility was to record times of events and to take notes.
According to the emergency plan and the safety manual, the chief officer - not the radio officer - was responsible for external radio traffic. The reason for this is believed to be that the safety organisation for the ESTONIA was partly copied from organisation plans made for vessels not carrying a radio officer. The Commission has not been able to elucidate whether this order was applied in practice
Various checklists were included in the equipment of the command group. Among these were checklists for collision, grounding, leakage and evacuation.
Fire groups no. 1 and no. 2 were led by the second engineer and the third engineer respectively. They were alerted by the coded alarm signal “Mr Skylight” and by the general fire alarm given by the alarm bells. A number given after “Mr Skylight” indicated the fire station where the group should meet. The call “Mr Skylight” followed by the Estonian words for “damage control” indicated that the damage control group should bring equipment for damage control and without further instructions start their work. Fire group 1 was trained and equipped mainly for fighting fires in the accommodation, and fire group 2 was focused on fires on the car deck and in the engine room. Fire group 2 was also trained in the use of chemical protection equipment.
The engine control group was led by the first engineer, and the only other member was the motorman on duty. The group was alerted by the “Mr Skylight” alarms, and by lifeboat and fire alarms. The muster station for the engine control group was the engine control room, and the prime task was to relieve the engineer on duty and take over responsibility for the running of the engine plant.
The lifeboat groups were alerted by the call “Mr Skylight” and by the general alarms. The muster stations were for the port lifeboat group number 2 lifeboat and for the starboard lifeboat group number 1 lifeboat. The main responsibility for the lifeboat groups was to ready lifeboats and liferafts for launching, and to prepare the ladders for use. Organising passengers on boat deck and distributing lifejackets were also duties included in the directions for these groups. Each group was under the command of a second officer and consisted of four other members. Four of these, two in each group, belonged to the deck crew and the other two were from the catering crew. The members of the lifeboat groups were all assigned positions in the lifeboat or liferaft crews.
The first aid group was led by the ship's doctor, and consisted of 11 members. The group was alerted by the call “Mr Skylight 727”, and the meeting place was the ship's hospital. The meeting place could be somewhere else, and in this case a suffix was added to the alarm call, indicating the meeting place. The main duties of the first aid group were to take care of injured and/or deceased persons, give first aid and prepare them for transport ashore or to other vessels. In an emergency situation which included “abandon ship”, the first aid group was also responsible for moving the injured to lifeboats.
The helicopter group was not intended to work in “abandon ship” or other situations when the entire safety organisation was mobilised. The group was therefore made up of persons with suitable skills from other groups in the emergency organisation such as the lifeboat groups and the fire groups. The ten-member helicopter group was led by the second officer and its duties were to prepare the vessel for helicopter landing.
For restricted evacuation and for closing off specific areas, there was a control group. The seven-member group was led by the security assistant. This group was alerted by a “Mr Skylight” alarm, and assembled at the cashier's office on deck 5. The duties of the group included restricted evacuations, searching of restricted areas, blocking off of areas where other groups were working, and assisting the first aid group. The control group was disbanded by the lifeboat alarm, the members then taking other duties in the evacuating groups.
Total evacuation of the vessel was the responsibility of 11 evacuation groups, led by the forward and aft zone leaders. The forward zone leader was in charge of groups 1, 2 and 3 and responsible for evacuation through the forward staircase. The aft zone leader was in charge of the other eight groups, and responsible for evacuation through the aft staircase. The evacuation groups were mustered by the lifeboat alarm or by “Mr Skylight”. Each group had a specified area to evacuate, from the muster station within, or in the vicinity of, that area. The evacuation groups were as far as possible composed of persons normally working in the area they were to evacuate, to ensure local knowledge thereof.
Each lifeboat had seven crew members with defined duties during launching and on board.
All liferaft stations had one station leader, and there was one raft leader for each liferaft.
Every crew member was assigned his/her own unique alarm number upon commencing service on board. This alarm number indicated his/her duties and position in the safety organisation.

 

[LondonJohn]

Oh my god this is embarrassing. Muzzle velocity is not the same as velocity of the projectile in flight.

And there this little divertissement shall end. Perhaps we'll now get back to the meat in the sandwich: the true meaning of "Mr Blue Sky Skylight"