The Sinking of MS Estonia: Case Re-opened Part II

[LondonJohn]

They noticed because water tends to be subject to gravity. Where would water entering the car deck end up?

A house is not a ship.

Those in the upper decks wouldn't have noticed anything wrong until the ship started to list.
Can you think of a reason why the upper decks didn't flood until the ship was far enough over for water to enter through windows and doorways?

It's almost laughable that we are having to explain how water behaves. But here we are......

 

[LondonJohn]

You can talk about gross generalisations all you like. I am talking about this specific ship, the Estonia, and as set out by the JAIC report itself: 'Mr Sylight 1 and 2' were the specific fire drill codes as agreed and as practised by the crew in their regular fire/bomb drills, and as confirmed by Linde and his interrogator in his interview of 2002. That coded message on the Estonia told crew to go to their designated fire station ASAP.

No they weren't specifically fire alerts. Take your fingers out of your ears, please.

 

[MarkCorrigan]

You can talk about gross generalisations all you like. I am talking about this specific ship, the Estonia, and as set out by the JAIC report itself: 'Mr Sylight 1 and 2' were the specific fire drill codes as agreed and as practised by the crew in their regular fire/bomb drills, and as confirmed by Linde and his interrogator in his interview of 2002. That coded message on the Estonia told crew to go to their designated fire station ASAP.

You've bee show that this is wrong and yet you still continue as if nothing happened. At this point it's pretty clear who is trolling.

Why won't you admit you were wrong about this I wonder.

 

[Vixen]

Anders Bjorkman is a lunatic who thinks that the 911 collapse can accurately be simulated with pizza boxes or bathroom scales, and has long since lost any credibility he might have had.

Hint: Even his own profession think he's a nutter.

I haven't claimed expertise in the field of naval engineering, nor would I ever do so. I don't know the first thing about it and unlike some people wouldn't try to luff that I do. However I do know Anders. He used to be a poster here. He's certifiable.

A person can be 'insane' yet still retain their knowledge and expertise in their chosen field. Mental illness or disability conditions do not cancel that out (cf Beethoven being deaf or see the series about an autistic doctor, who nevertheless made a brilliant surgeon, in the Netflix 'The Good Doctor').


There are plenty of people in history who were absolutely horrible. unbearable or even insane, whose knowledge/expertise nonetheless were considered sound.

 

[MarkCorrigan]

That's true. Unfortunately for you Anders isn't one of them, because his nutter butters ideas on 911 directly contradict engineering and architectural principles. Again the fact that the man is a loon isn't the issue, it's that he has decided that his lunatic ideas trump architectural and engineering principles.

He is no longer considered an expert. The rest of his contemporaries are of the opinion he no longer has credibility even in the area of his supposed expertise.

To put it another way, let's say that you have a noted expert on Finland, Jon Jonsson. Jon has studied in depth Finnish studies and has previously been noted as an expert in the field of Finland. What would you say if he then started spouting off that all Scandinavian countries were islands and everyone there spoke Flemish. Would you still use him as an authority?

 

[GlennB]

Anders Bjorkman is a qualified naval architect. And yourself..?

Bjorkman is a nutcase and a fraud. Details available on request.

 

[Vixen]

Stop using that garbage website as a source. OK?

Werner Hummel is a perfectly respectable authority. Yes, he represents Meyer-Werft shipbuilders in court. That doesn't make the website 'garbage'. This has to be evidence that can stand up in court.


Unfortunately those responsible for the disaster have never had to go before a criminal court to answer those charges of criminal negligence, criminal manslaughter or even mass murder.

 

[phiwum]

The "number 1" and "number 2" suffixes merely refer(red) to the particular groups of crew for specific locations on the ship.

So, for instance, there was a selection of crew on the Estonia who were assigned to "number 1" group, and their muster location was at the bow. And when the "Mr Skylight number 1" message was broadcast, a) it alerted all crewmembers to there being a serious (general) problem, and b) it specifically instructed those crewmembers assigned to the number 1 group to get to their muster station immediately.

I understand what you're saying. But if you're right, the wording of the JAIC report is misleading, since it explicitly refers to fire stations and fire crews. That's all I'm pointing out.

Sent from my SM-G991U using Tapatalk

 

[phiwum]

Why do you continue to link to dishonest secondary (sometimes tertiary) sources?

Her link is to the final report of the German group. That seems like a primary source to me.

Whether they are reliable is not clear to me.

Not everything at EstoniaFerryDisaster is written by the guy running that site. As far as I can tell, links to the Final Report are to material straight from the German group. (Of course, it's possible I'm hornswaggled here and he faked the final report, but I don't see evidence of that so far.)

 

[whoanellie]

You can talk about gross generalisations all you like. I am talking about this specific ship, the Estonia, and as set out by the JAIC report itself: 'Mr Sylight 1 and 2' were the specific fire drill codes as agreed and as practised by the crew in their regular fire/bomb drills, and as confirmed by Linde and his interrogator in his interview of 2002. That coded message on the Estonia told crew to go to their designated fire station ASAP.

So you disagree with what is written here:
https://www.estoniaferrydisaster.net/estonia final report/7.3.htm

 

[phiwum]

* and note in passing that this bottom lock is referred to by just that name in the illustration from the official report that you've provided - to the best of my knowledge, you still haven't explained where this term "atlantic lock" comes from......

Neither Vixen nor her sketchier sources made up the term. It appears in the JAIC report, where they even give the etymology.

The bottom lock was sometimes named the “Atlantic lock” as it was not in common use in early ferries but was later introduced to enable similar ferries to cross open oceans. The “Atlantic lock” had become established by the time the ESTONIA was built.

 

[whoanellie]

These were serious repairs that were needed.

Reports of crew having to use sledgehammers to get the atlantic bolt in place, which had been unassembled anyway and parts removed or modified - gas cylinders and welding machinery in to enable passengers to drive their vehicles off - tells yoiu the Bureau Veritas inspectors were grossly negligent and also the JAIC for not even investigating all these reports from former passengers and crew attempting to help them.

You acknowledge that there were serious issues with the bow visor but cannot fathom why that might cause a serious issue in a gale?

 

[whoanellie]

Neither Vixen nor her sketchier sources made up the term. It appears in the JAIC report, where they even give the etymology.

Thanks

 

[whoanellie]

The car deck is two floors above the lowest deck, which contained the engine room, swimming pool and sauna. The rest of this area were airtight compartments (15 in all, IIRC). This is what kept the vessel buoyant.

The car deck is above the water line. Logic tells you it has to be for vehicles to Roll-On-Roll-Off. The car deck is part of the super structure.

Which 15 compartments in the diagram were 'airtight'?

 

[phiwum]

Stop using that garbage website as a source. OK?

Again, she's pointing to the final report of the German group on that site. As far as I know, that section of the site is the verbatim report from the German group. It's not part of the original material from the site owner.

I don't know of any other site that has the German group final report.

You can criticize the reliability of large swaths of EstoniaFerryDisaster and you can criticize the German group itself, but I don't think that you should criticize Vixen for citing the report, since it's relevant.

 

[phiwum]

These were serious repairs that were needed.

Estonian Ferry Disaster

Reports of crew having to use sledgehammers to get the atlantic bolt in place, which had been unassembled anyway and parts removed or modified - gas cylinders and welding machinery in to enable passengers to drive their vehicles off - tells yoiu the Bureau Veritas inspectors were grossly negligent and also the JAIC for not even investigating all these reports from former passengers and crew attempting to help them.

I'm a little puzzled. Are you committed to the claim that the ferry was seaworthy and thus could not have sunk in a storm or are you committed to the claim that it was a floating junkpile lucky to get out of the harbor?

 

[whoanellie]

Passengers in the lowest deck deck 1, just below the car deck, say there was significant water in their cabins and in the corridor (cf Reintaam) but there was no water flowing down the stairs, thus the water was rising up from the bottom, not escaping from the car deck, which had a 9cm water barrier at its sealed door, which was shut to passengers during the journey.

Well there was water on the car deck whether from the faulty bow visor or from a fire suppression system. Where did it go?

 

[whoanellie]

I'm a little puzzled. Are you committed to the claim that the ferry was seaworthy and thus could not have sunk in a storm or are you committed to the claim that it was a floating junkpile lucky to get out of the harbor?

You're not the only one. It's almost as if she's posting with the intent of provoking readers into displaying emotional responses for her own amusement. I wonder if there's a word for that........

 

[LondonJohn]

A person can be 'insane' yet still retain their knowledge and expertise in their chosen field. Mental illness or disability conditions do not cancel that out (cf Beethoven being deaf or see the series about an autistic doctor, who nevertheless made a brilliant surgeon, in the Netflix 'The Good Doctor').


There are plenty of people in history who were absolutely horrible. unbearable or even insane, whose knowledge/expertise nonetheless were considered sound.

I'm interested here in your comparative examples of a deaf person and a (fictional) autistic person in the same bracket as an "insane" person.

In fact, I'm ending up questioning the sanity of the comparison, to be honest.

 

[LondonJohn]

Werner Hummel is a perfectly respectable authority. Yes, he represents Meyer-Werft shipbuilders in court. That doesn't make the website 'garbage'. This has to be evidence that can stand up in court.


Unfortunately those responsible for the disaster have never had to go before a criminal court to answer those charges of criminal negligence, criminal manslaughter or even mass murder.

That website is partisan garbage. Stop using it as a source.