Extraordinary Evidence for Ghosts?

You're just making stuff up, right?

Why in the world say "non-baryonic" other than to sound as if you know what you're talking about?

It makes no sense and adds no value in the analysis of this photo.

You could say with as much relevance "non-potatoish matter is utilized by living things..."
Well, I had to wiki it, thereby showing that I don't know what I'm talking about.

But if Wikipedia is correct in saying that

Baryonic matter is matter composed mostly of baryons (by mass), which includes atoms of any sort (and thus includes nearly all matter that we may encounter or experience in everyday life, including our bodies). Non-baryonic matter is the fundamental antithesis of such matter, being any sort of matter that is not primarily composed of baryons. This might include such ordinary matter as neutrinos, photons or free electrons; however, it may also include exotic species of non-baryonic dark matter, such as supersymmetric particles, axions or black holes. The distinction between baryonic and non-baryonic matter is important in cosmology, because Big Bang nucleosynthesis models set tight constraints on the amount of baryonic matter present in the early universe.

then yes, it needs further clarification, at least. Non-baryonic ghosts? SirPhil, have you any evidence that what you saw was composed of neutrinos, photons, free electrons, supersymmetric particles, axions or, erm, black holes?

If not, I'd drop that particular term if I were you ;)
 
Indeed.

If something is observed consistently behaving a certain way, and having certain characteristics, it becomes one of two things:

1) The result of some type of common psychological abberation.

2) An objective, real phenomena that leaves no trace of itself.
3) An artifact of the process by which one came to assume the thing behaved consistently.

What is behaving consistently here? What is consistently blueish white?

The ghost photos which are blueish white? There's your artifact: selection bias.
 
Indeed.

If something is observed consistently behaving a certain way, and having certain characteristics, it becomes one of two things:

1) The result of some type of common psychological abberation.

2) An objective, real phenomena that leaves no trace of itself.

Sir Phillip,

Thanks for sharing your experience. It was interesting. I, too, have had an experience where I saw something that I have no physical explanation for and that fits the description of 'ghost'.

I would like to note that even explanation 2) above doesn't mean that ghosts exist or that what you or I saw was a ghost. It only means that something happened that we do not know how to explain.
 
SirPhilip said:
If something is observed consistently behaving a certain way, and having certain characteristics, it becomes one of two things:

1) The result of some type of common psychological abberation.

2) An objective, real phenomena that leaves no trace of itself.
I had something written in response to this, but Nucular said part of it better than I could.

The other part is that you would need to demonstrate that this consistency exists. I am not aware of it.

Beth said:
I would like to note that even explanation 2) above doesn't mean that ghosts exist or that what you or I saw was a ghost. It only means that something happened that we do not know how to explain.
Well said.
 
A quick 10 second analysis:
The light direction is wrong. The light that illuminates the wall on the left, the windowpane and the handrail seems to come from an angle off frame on the right.

How the ghost was painted in is a different subject. I think I'm with Starthinker and luchog on the optical theory, since the density seems a bit hight but it could be created digitally, too...

FR
 
You're just making stuff up, right?
I have no idea. It's one of those things that's part of our mythology. You have to realize this sort of thing is common around the world. But I'm not going to be dishonest and say it never happened, or not talk or speculate about it. In fact, I never talk about it. I feel it is appropriate to bring up on these forums because they deal with examining the causes of things that are held as important around the world in the form of folklore, mythology, and are considered a part of daily life also.

Why in the world say "non-baryonic" other than to sound as if you know what you're talking about?
Because the phenomena does not behave like normal matter, and certainly couldn't be a result of anything that the body is known to utilize. There is no other type of matter known to exist that would qualify for speculation, other than exotic matter, hence my reasoning.

It makes no sense and adds no value in the analysis of this photo.
I wasn't attempting to make sense of the photo. I'm a digital artist myself. I actually had seen something like that plainly, and was reducing it to what it could be. If it is not non-baryonic matter, then in what state would normal matter behave like that, especially in the context of human physiology.

You could say with as much relevance "non-potatoish matter is utilized by living things..."
Well, you are free to explain how certain types of normal matter could behave like that under certain conditions, and I'll concede I jumped to conclusions. As far as I can tell, unless some type of exotic matter is involved, it would have to be a psychological abberation, as it couldn't make sense.
 
Last edited:
I have no idea. It's one of those things that's part of our mythology. You have to realize this sort of thing is common around the world. But I'm not going to be dishonest and say it never happened, or not talk or speculate about it. In fact, I never talk about it. I feel it is appropriate to bring up on these forums because they deal with examining the causes of things that are held as important around the world in the form of folklore, mythology, and are considered a part of daily life also.

Because the phenomena does not behave like normal matter, and certainly couldn't be a result of anything that the body is known to utilize.

I wasn't attempting to make sense of the photo. I actually had seen something like that plainly, and was reducing it to what it could be.
If it is not non-baryonic matter, then in what state would normal matter behave like that, especially in the context of human physiology.

Well, you are free to explain how certain types of normal matter could behave like that under certain conditions, and I'll concede I jumped to conclusions. As far as I can tell, unless some type of exotic matter is involved, it would have to be a psychological abberation, as it would
defy the known behavior of matter.

My apologiees if I came across as snippy. My only excuse is that I was trying to be, well, snippy.

This post, though, leads me to believe that you're serious about this and trying to have an honest discussion. Apologies again for not thinking so before.

That said, I still think you've got it muddled round.

There is nothing wrong with discussing this photo or your experience here. In fact, I think it's rather an excellent place to do so.

What I am trying to point out, though, is that you are beginning your discussion with the assumption that this photo represents a supernatural phenomenon whereas a quick analysis indicates it represents photographic manipulation.

So it is in fact quite easy to demonstrate that "certain types of normal matter could behave like that under certain conditions." Simply go back and read the analyses of the people who have posted here.
 
Because the phenomena does not behave like normal matter, and certainly couldn't be a result of anything that the body is known to utilize. There is no other type of matter known to exist that would qualify for speculation, other than exotic matter, hence my reasoning.
What, and non-baryonic matter does act like that?

Well, you are free to explain how certain types of normal matter could behave like that under certain conditions, and I'll concede I jumped to conclusions. As far as I can tell, unless some type of exotic matter is involved, it would have to be a psychological abberation, as it couldn't make sense.
I really don't see how 'exotic matter', baryonic or otherwise, would make this 'make sense'.

I agree with Garrette that you seem to be here for a proper discussion, and your ghost story is very interesting, so I apologise if I sound like a stuck record, but seriously. Why non-baryonic? Why will you only concede that you jumped to conclusions if Garrette explains how normal matter could behave like that? It makes your argument sound wooish, when the rest of what you've said isn't. It's incongruous. You may as well say ectoplasm.

In other news, though, if you as a digital artist were asked to reproduce this photo, how would you go about it? Would you use photoshop, or something else?

ETA: Obviously I don't mean reproduce, else you'd just use a scanner, I mean, like, replicate the phenomenon.
 
What I am trying to point out, though, is that you are beginning your discussion with the assumption that this photo represents a supernatural phenomenon whereas a quick analysis indicates it represents photographic manipulation.

Quick analysis indicates the possibility of manipulation. How can you be certain?
 
Technical aspects aside, I'm pretty sure that if I just happened to be walking around a very grotty old house with a camera and take the time to get off a well exposed shot of a floating apparition, I'd also take the time to get the sucker in the centre of the shot. Or take many shots, perhaps in the hope that one of them will turn out and not be blurred or badly exposed.

What we have here is one well-exposed, reasonably focused and steady shot of a stairwell with possibly the most amazing thing the photographer claims to have ever seen just making it into the side of the frame. Bollocks, as we say in the UK.
 
delphi ote said:
Just making sure we're all playing fair.
I've no problem with that, but you made me rethink my earlier post where I said I'm only implying parsimony.

That's not completely true. To be honest, I have to say that I do have some level of certainty that this represents a manipulated photo (or negative).

It's just that my certainty is provisional.

And I agree with Kenny.
 
But that's my point. You get your film developed, take the negative and paint on it, and get your film developed again and viola! a ghost. Film never touches a computer.

Or get the film developed and made into photos, scan a photo, edit it with a computer, print it out, and take a new photo of the print.
 
My apologiees if I came across as snippy. My only excuse is that I was trying to be, well, snippy.
Completely understood. Don't worry, this is the only "supernatural" thing I ever saw. Initially, I wasn't going to even say
anything, but...
This post, though, leads me to believe that you're serious about this and trying to have an honest discussion. Apologies again for not thinking so before.
It's more of well, you see a big packet of glowing 'gas' one minute, and the next it's gone, leaving no trace of itself, and it really goes no further than that. In my case it remained there until I snapped and bolted. I mean, think about how you would approach it.
That said, I still think you've got it muddled round. There is nothing wrong with discussing this photo or your experience here. In fact, I think it's rather an excellent place to do so.
Indeed, in fact, I don't think there is any other more appropriate place to develop a treatise on urban, folk, and other myths.
What I am trying to point out, though, is that you are beginning your discussion with the assumption that this photo represents a supernatural phenomenon whereas a quick analysis indicates it represents photographic manipulation.
Oh no, the photo could be a complete fake, but it still cooincides pretty much what I observed as far as general color and the amount of light reflected. What I observed was much more of a solid blue, with some type of specks of whitish distortion. I mean, think about it, if you actually saw something like that, then notice a lot of the photos people claim are ghosts and learn some people are faking them also. You aren't going to have much of a debate. As soon as I saw the photo, I was weighing whether I should, instead of just ignoring it, "Well, hey. That's a pretty good example, whether it is a fake or not, of what I saw very similer to that." There are a lot of photos like these, commonly they are "orbs", which are of the same color but are not luminescent. This is, by the way, the only thing I ever came across that I had serious problems with reasoning around, so bringing it up, so you can understand why it piqued my curiosity.

Simply go back and read the analyses of the people who have posted here.
Done. I also examined the photo on this workstation with a 30' Apple display here at the studio I work. If it was a fake, very likely Photoshop would have been used (and associated brush templates). Here's the three criteria I used off the top of my head:

1) Stamp spaced brush template marks.

2) Stroke termination.

3) Overlapping stroke layers.

There appears to be three potential red flags on the image, the cutoff Ed mentioned being noted also. On closer examination, though, it's hard to understand how he would have not seen the "edge", because he made a very good effort to leave no smoothing artifacts.

regghost.jpg
ghost_edge.jpg
 
Last edited:
It's more of well. You see a big packet of glowing 'gas' one minute, and the next it's gone, leaving no trace of itself, and it really goes no further than that.

That's similar to my experience as well, though mine happened outdoors in full sunlight, so there was no apparent 'glow' and I saw it only for a few seconds, not minutes. I also didn't see any discernable form, just an amorphous blob. I can't say what it was, but it fit the stereotypical description of 'ghost' quite well and I don't know of any rational explanation for what I saw. Further, the next day I found out than an old and dear friend of mine had recently passed away. It was very odd.
 
That's similar to my experience as well, though mine happened outdoors in full sunlight, so there was no apparent 'glow' and I saw it only for a few seconds, not minutes. I also didn't see any discernable form, just an amorphous blob. I can't say what it was, but it fit the stereotypical description of 'ghost' quite well and I don't know of any rational explanation for what I saw. Further, the next day I found out than an old and dear friend of mine had recently passed away. It was very odd.

Was it blue? You know, if it ain't blue it ain't true! :rolleyes:

:boxedin:
 
Done. I also examined the photo on this workstation with a 30' Apple display here at the studio I work. If it was a fake, very likely Photoshop would have been used. Here's the three criteria I used off the top of my head:

What about the criteria that things are a little different between the negative and the positive?
There's a little dark spot pretty much in the middle of the handrail between us and the "ghost" that would come out white in a positive. But in the picture it isn't there...
This indicates later retouching at least...

Secondly the negative scan has a really low quality. Way worse than the positive. I don't know how it was scanned and I don't know "Walgreens", but if that is the quality they offer I wouldn't go there.

Thirdly, please note my #45, which could explain the bad framing (he couldn't pan to the right, since this is where the lamp was) and most of the comments Starthinker made in his #27.

Fourthly, If I photographed a ghost I would rather publish real high quality pictures not this "jpegged to death" stuff. Always makes me suspicious...

FR
 
Thanks, SirPhilip. I think I understand now.

Have you considered explanations not involving non-baryonic matter?
 

Back
Top Bottom