Texas bans abortion.

[cosmicaug]

That sounds like the kind of thing someone should be held "accountable" for.

As long as he doesn't have an abortion it should be OK.

 

[Warp12]

No argument that abortion should be the choice of the woman is an argument against teaching sex education, birth control, responsibility, or any other proactive approach.

Where do you see any actual argument against any proactive measures in this thread?

Give it a rest, already. "I'm not arguing against proactive measures, just telling you why accountability is not really a quantifiable thing". That is what you are seeing here.

Not to mention the other craziness that I mentioned, which I know you have seen.

 

[acbytesla]

Also here's a question.

Why do they keep getting to ask the question over and over until they get the answer they want? Wasn't Roe Vs Wade supposed to be one of those, whatchmacallit, "precedent" things?

Isn't asking the Supreme Court something and getting an answer supposed to be where the question ends unless some major new facts about what is being asked come out?

What new facts about abortion are there to ask the question again?

If that was the case,

Dred Scott v Sanford

or

Buck v Bell

or

Plessy v Ferguson

or

Lochner v New York

would all still be the law of the land.

 

[cosmicaug]

Give it a rest, already. "I'm not arguing against proactive measures, just telling you why accountability is not really a quantifiable thing". That is what you are seeing here.

I would not be concerned about being "unquantifiable" but, judging from your failure to address it properly in any meaningful way, it must be extremely difficult to define.

 

[Stacyhs]

My idea of accountability is that abortion is treated and promoted, by society and individual, as the absolute last resort, not just another "method of birth control", as has been put forth by some. However, this will never happen...because the focus will never be on that in an environment of liberals.

That's not answering the question of how WOMEN need to be 'accountable' once they are pregnant; you're promoting a societal view.

You seem to have some strange and distorted view that women do consider abortion "just another "method of birth control". That could not be farther from the truth. You think that undergoing an emotionally and physically painful procedure is equivalent in our minds to taking a pill, using an IUD, or condom. I know a handful of women who have had abortions and it was a gut wrenching decision for each and every one of them. None of them took it lightly.

...because the focus will never be on that in an environment of liberals.

Oh, come now. That has to be one of the silliest things I've ever read. You actually think 'liberals' prefer abortion to unwanted pregnancy prevention? Is that why it's been 'liberals' who have pushed sex education in schools to the horrified objection of the right-wing and who have pushed for birth control to be available to all women through their insurance?

You can screech and cry about it all you want. You can tell me about how abortion laws lead to a clothes-hanger shortage.

We could 'screech and cry about it' but we'd never be heard over the hysterical cries of 'You're MURDERING BABIES!!" coming from the right-wing. We could also tell you that making abortion illegal only leads to more back alley street abortions and "hanger" self-abortions and maternal deaths but instead, I'll let the facts speak for themselves:

In a 1976 article, researchers from the Center for Disease Control examined national abortion data from the three years surrounding the rulings and estimated that the number of illegal procedures in the country plummeted from around 130,000 to 17,000 between 1972 and 1974. The number of deaths associated with illegal abortion decreased from 39 to five in that same time period; women who died as a result of illegal abortions typically were black, were more than 12 weeks pregnant and had self-induced in their own community. The researchers concluded that abortion services need to be improved and available more widely, especially for women at high risk for seeking illegal abortions, because “any actions which impede their access to legal abortion may increase their risk of death.” More than 40 years later, their words are a potent reminder of the dangers of restricting abortion access.

https://www.guttmacher.org/perspectives50/abortion-and-after-legalization

The bottom line is, by promoting the reactive response as being just as valid as the proactive measure, society has failed.

I've certainly never said that and neither has anyone else in this thread that I can see. No one has said that getting an abortion is as preferable as preventing an unwanted pregnancy in the first place.

And there is no better example of such failure than in the liberal arguments going on in this thread.

You have a tendency to interpret things that people say according to your own bias rather than what is actually being said.

 

[Warp12]

I would not be concerned about being "unquantifiable" but, judging from your failure to address it properly in any meaningful way, it must be extremely difficult to define.

Actually, you will find I made multiple statements about proactive vs reactive focus which fairly clearly define how I view accountability.

I find it ironic that I am being pinned down to write legislation here, while the liberals cop out with the "no limits" and "whatever the woman wants" positions. Talk about lazy.

 

[Stacyhs]

By all means, let them stand up and promote it fervently, if they in believe it is so important.

It would beat the hell out of the, "babies are parasites", "abortion is the same as any other form of birth control", and "abortion has great benefits as related to population control" ways of thinking that have been brought up. Not mention a few others.

Maybe a common ground? Although I thought we at least had one when I said that I don't support the TX law, as it is too restrictive.

Would you care to actually cite where I've ever said that being reactive is equal in preference to being pro-active? Or anyone else, for that matter?

Ya know, the whole "I'm so morally outraged by your use of parasite" spiel reached its 'best used by" date several pages ago. Now it's just an obvious attempt at 'triggering the libs'. Give it a rest.

 

[Stacyhs]

Give it a rest, already. "I'm not arguing against proactive measures, just telling you why accountability is not really a quantifiable thing". That is what you are seeing here.

Not to mention the other craziness that I mentioned, which I know you have seen.

Oh, yeah...we've all seen a lot of craziness in this thread.

 

[Stacyhs]

Actually, you will find I made multiple statements about proactive vs reactive focus which fairly clearly define how I view accountability.
I find it ironic that I am being pinned down to write legislation here, while the liberals cop out with the "no limits" and "whatever the woman wants" positions. Talk about lazy.

We must have different definitions than you of what constitutes a 'fairly clearly defined" view.

 

[Warp12]

Ya know, the whole "I'm so morally outraged by your use of parasite" spiel reached its 'best used by" date several pages ago. Now it's just an obvious attempt at 'triggering the libs'. Give it a rest.

Let me talk to my imaginary beer-loving neighbor about that "few days" thing.

 

[JimOfAllTrades]

Give it a rest, already. "I'm not arguing against proactive measures, just telling you why accountability is not really a quantifiable thing". That is what you are seeing here.

You've said something I think is wrong. Why should I give it a rest just because you can't seem to answer. Do you have any examples of someone arguing against any proactive measures in this thread? If not acknowledge your statement was bad and withdraw it.

Accountability is a bit tricky. We certainly want to teach accountability in general, and responsibility. And as it applies, among many other things, to sex education. The degrees and actual actions needed to foster responsibility are as many and varied as the situations in which we want to apply them. But your idea seems to be that it is equal to simple punishment, and I don't agree with that.

Not to mention the other craziness that I mentioned, which I know you have seen.

I have seen some things in this thread, but I think my idea of crazy most likely doesn't match yours.

 

[acbytesla]

Actually, you will find I made multiple statements about proactive vs reactive focus which fairly clearly define how I view accountability.

I find it ironic that I am being pinned down to write legislation here, while the liberals cop out with the "no limits" and "whatever the woman wants" positions. Talk about lazy.

Yes, you're pinned down. There are no simple answers. Particularly if you want the state to enforce your morality.

There are ramifications. People are going to have sex. Contraception is not foolproof.
Not all individuals are prepared emotionally, mentally, financially or health wise to carry a fetus to term and/or to give birth.

The question is, who should make that decision? If it's the woman and her doctor, the rest of us don't have to get involved. We don't have to send women and doctors to prison. We don't have to take children away from parents who were not prepared to have children. We don't have to have spend money on enforcement. We don't have to foist another inequity on the poor because we all know that people with means will be able to get their abortion in another State.

If you want to make the decision for all these people you should at least have answers. Like it or not, It comes with your position.

 

[Stacyhs]

Let me talk to my imaginary beer-loving neighbor about that "few days" thing.

False equivalency: one is acting morally outraged over a scientific fact and the other is a fabrication.

 

[JimOfAllTrades]

Yes, you're pinned down. There are no simple answers. Particularly if you want the state to enforce your morality.

There are ramifications. People are going to have sex. Contraception is not foolproof.
Not all individuals are prepared emotionally, mentally, financially or health wise to carry a fetus to term and/or to give birth.

The question is, who should make that decision? If it's the woman and her doctor, the rest of us don't have to get involved. We don't have to send women and doctors to prison. We don't have to take children way from parents who were not prepared to have children. We don't have to have spend money on enforcement. We don't have to foist another inequity on the poor because we all know that people with means will be able to get their abortion in another State.

If you want to make the decision for all these people you should at least have answers. Like it or not, It comes with your position.

I very much agree. And I think that even after my trying multiple times you've said it better than I have. Nicely done!

 

[Warp12]

I very much agree. And I think that even after my trying multiple times you've said it better than I have. Nicely done!

I noticed you didn't comment on the whole Thanos-like "benefits of abortion as related to population control" angle that someone posted. I wonder why that is?

I'll just take it you were in agreement with that, too.

You're right, we don't agree about what "crazy" is.

 

[JimOfAllTrades]

I noticed you didn't comment on the whole Thanos-like "benefits of abortion as related to population control" angle that someone posted. I wonder why that is?

I'll just take it you were in agreement with that, too.

You're right, we don't agree about what "crazy" is.

I did think your picture of the cartoon character was fairly silly, but I let it go as off topic.

None of those are arguments against any proactive measures, they are arguments as to why abortion may not be always bad. They are true, at one level or another, but they are not, in my opinion, the best reasons that a woman should have the right to choose.

 

[Warp12]

I did think your picture of the cartoon character was fairly silly, but I let it go as off topic.

None of those are arguments against any proactive measures, they are arguments as to why abortion may not be always bad. They are true, at one level or another, but they are not, in my opinion, the best reasons that a woman should have the right to choose.

"Cartoon character"? I'm not sure you even understand the reference.

Because, talking about the potential carbon footprint of the unborn, amongst the other asinine points, is totally on-topic.

Yeah, maybe later down the line I can listen to what you have to say.

 

[JimOfAllTrades]

Because, talking about the potential carbon footprint of the unborn, amongst the other asinine points, is totally on-topic.

Yeah, maybe later down the line I can listen to what you have to say.

In a thread about abortion, reasons that abortion is not automatically bad is probably on topic. But they aren't, in my opinion, the best reasons a woman should have a right to choose.

Any links to anyone arguing against proactive measures in this thread? I'll take a look at them when you post them.

 

[JimOfAllTrades]

"Cartoon character"? I'm not sure you even understand the reference.

I'm sure you're not.

 

[acbytesla]

Why don't we start here:

What level of accountability do YOU think a woman has in the reproductive process? Is personal accountability even a factor in your mind? Should abortion be considered just another form of birth control?

Do we draw the line anywhere?

Again and again you hoist out this moral superiority argument of accountability. And NOT ONCE have you said what that means.

People use contraception and still get pregnant. What is the accountable thing to do?
Reckless teenagers sometimes get pregnant. What is the accountable thing to do?

The reality is this crap happens. Sure, it's better if people are taught about birth control and take precautions and the need for abortions is reduced. But I've seen religious parents go nuts when they find out their daughters are taking birth control pills. Evangelicals push "abstinence only" as sex education. The Catholic Church says contraception is a sin.

And yet a great many of these people...especially teenagers find themselves pregnant.

What's the answer? They're screwed because they had sex? I mean we're talking about accountability after all.