Discussion: Transwomen are not women (Part 7)

[Meadmaker]

The penis of a trans female is not the same as the penis of a cis male.

We're back to self ID issues. If, when talking about access rights, you would be willing to limit trans access only to people who have undergone HRT or surgery, you would get a lot more support than if you demand the same rights for males with fully functional reproductive systems.

 

[d4m10n]

If your point was about males in general, then don't bring us into it in the first place. We aren't male.

By "male" I mean the sex which produces small motile gametes (e.g. sperm).

Here is the relevant wiki page: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/male

Eddie Izzard is a woman and can use women's facilities and Elliot Page is a man and can use men's facilities.

I don't see any way to make or analyze this argument without plainly stating what the highlighted phrases should be taken to mean.

At one point in the (not too distant) past, everyone would've agreed that "Page is a woman" and "Izzard is a man."

What changed?

 

[mgidm86]

There was nothing malicious or any misrepresentations with what he said. It was accurate.


Despite your apparent god-like knowledge to discern who we really are, I guarantee if you met me in person, you would not be able to tell I was once a guy. And this will be the case more and more as we come out earlier and can make decisions about our own biology.



Your approach isn't '"common-sense", it is blatantly exclusionary. Eddie Izzard is a woman and can use women's facilities and Elliot Page is a man and can use men's facilities. You can make excuses for your transphobia all you want, but you don't get the right to deny them, or me, our equal rights.
Hell, you can't even call me a woman, instead referring to me as 'they' and 'them' now to try to get around it and so you don't run afoul of the mods. Your bigotry will die out, and you will be left screaming into the void.

That is how you see it. These points have been debated for a long time in this thread. How did you come up with these absolutes?

Yay! More segregation! That has fixed so many of our problems in the past!

Segregation huh?

If your point was about males in general, then don't bring us into it in the first place. We aren't male.

I'd call you a woman in public, but you are not female.

You seem to have decided on the rules all by yourself, but this is a discussion, a debate, in case you haven't noticed. Your insistance that you are correct does not make it so.

 

[Emily's Cat]

Your approach isn't '"common-sense", it is blatantly exclusionary. Eddie Izzard is a woman and can use women's facilities and Elliot Page is a man and can use men's facilities. You can make excuses for your transphobia all you want, but you don't get the right to deny them, or me, our equal rights.

What's the difference between Eddie Izzard and a straight man who cross-dresses? Do you think that straight cross-dressing cis-men should have the right to be in the spaces where you are naked without your consent?

Hell, you can't even call me a woman, instead referring to me as 'they' and 'them' now to try to get around it and so you don't run afoul of the mods. Your bigotry will die out, and you will be left screaming into the void.

I don't call ANYONE a woman. And if you paid attention, you would be aware that I refer to everyone using gender-neutral pronouns.

I reject gender. Gender is a socially-constructed tool of oppression, that limits the experiences and opportunities of people based on stereotypes of what is "appropriate" for them to engage in behaviorally and expressively. I do not support it in any form whatsoever.

Sex, on the other hand, is a biological reality among sexually reproductive species. It is fixed and innate, and has very real and meaningful consequences for members of any sexually dimorphic species.

Literally treating everyone the same is far from bigotry.

But hey, thanks for the ill-wish. Very classy of you.

 

[Emily's Cat]

If your point was about males in general, then don't bring us into it in the first place. We aren't male.

And the earth is flat too. So there!

 

[Boudicca90]

By "male" I mean the sex which produces small motile gametes (e.g. sperm).

Here is the relevant wiki page: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/male

There are more factors other than that that go into somebody being male, like secondary sex characteristics and neurological makeup.

I don't see any way to make or analyze this argument without plainly stating what the highlighted phrases should be taken to mean.

At one point in the (not too distant) past, everyone would've agreed that "Page is a woman" and "Izzard is a man."

What changed?

Nothing has changed, they just realized that the conception of themselves they used to have was incorrect. Even though I was assigned male, I've viewed myself as female for most of my life, even before I transitioned. Eddie Izzard was always a woman and Elliot Page was always a man. They just had to realize that for themselves.

 

[Boudicca90]

You seem to have decided on the rules all by yourself, but this is a discussion, a debate, in case you haven't noticed. Your insistance that you are correct does not make it so.

My identity is not up for debate. Period.

 

[Boudicca90]

I don't call ANYONE a woman. And if you paid attention, you would be aware that I refer to everyone using gender-neutral pronouns.

I reject gender. Gender is a socially-constructed tool of oppression, that limits the experiences and opportunities of people based on stereotypes of what is "appropriate" for them to engage in behaviorally and expressively. I do not support it in any form whatsoever.

Sex, on the other hand, is a biological reality among sexually reproductive species. It is fixed and innate, and has very real and meaningful consequences for members of any sexually dimorphic species.

Literally treating everyone the same is far from bigotry.

But hey, thanks for the ill-wish. Very classy of you.

Wow, well that is certainly a unique opinion. "Gender doesn't exist!"

Gender does exist, and it is much more important when it comes to everyday society than sex is.

And you are very welcome! I promise your dystopian hellscape where you have to treat us as equals won't be too bad.

 

[theprestige]

My identity is not up for debate. Period.

What your identity means or should mean to anyone else, however, is indeed up for debate.

ETA: Might as well say that how I identify you is not up for debate. Period.

 

[Meadmaker]

Wow, well that is certainly a unique opinion. "Gender doesn't exist!"

She didn't say that. She said it is socially constructed and she doesn't support it.


Or should I sy, "they said".

 

[Louden Wilde]

There are more factors other than that that go into somebody being male, like secondary sex characteristics and neurological makeup.

No. See this post again

Or this link
Scroll down to Sex vs Gender and the definition of male and female

Nothing has changed, they just realized that the conception of themselves they used to have was incorrect. Even though I was assigned male, I've viewed myself as female for most of my life, even before I transitioned. Eddie Izzard was always a woman and Elliot Page was always a man. They just had to realize that for themselves.

This is social roles/stereotypes, not sex.

 

[d4m10n]

There are more factors other than that that go into somebody being male, like secondary sex characteristics and neurological makeup.

That isn't how the wiki goes, though; it says "males may differ from females in ways other than the production of spermatozoa." (Emphasis mine)

Put another way: Secondary characteristics are less central to the concept of sex than primary ones.

My identity is not up for debate.

This is a bizarre mode of argument.

 

[Louden Wilde]

Wow, well that is certainly a unique opinion. "Gender doesn't exist!"

Gender does exist, and it is much more important when it comes to everyday society than sex is.

No. This is the core of the discussion/argument (that gender is more important than sex), and it's demonstrably false.

Even you admitted that females (by the definition I used & linked to) are oppressed on the basis of their sex.
All over the world.
In a lot of ways (example du jour - girls with unwanted pregnancies in Texas).

We've unfortunately had to to post evidence of this ad nauseam.

There's also health care (for males and females)

Sex goes back many millions of years, and you wouldn't have gender without it.

 

[Ziggurat]

Sex goes back many millions of years, and you wouldn't have gender without it.

Screw gender, you wouldn’t have almost any complex life without sex. It’s pretty much a requirement for evolutionary progress, in both animals and plants.

 

[d4m10n]

"The decision whether or not to bear a child is central to a woman’s life, to her well-being and dignity. It is a decision she must make for herself. When Government controls that decision for her, she is being treated as less than a fully adult human responsible for her own choices."

Edited for 2021:
https://twitter.com/ACLU/status/1439259891064004610

 

[Boudicca90]

I can see the 'gender-critical' position is quickly becoming the 'gender-denial' position. Any excuse you need to discriminate against us, I guess.

 

[theprestige]

I can see the 'gender-critical' position is quickly becoming the 'gender-denial' position. Any excuse you need to discriminate against us, I guess.

Everybody else has been hard at work for a couple generations now, trying to erase gender stereotypes. Not perpetuate them.

Take away the stereotypes, and gender is meaningless. What does it mean to be a woman?

 

[Meadmaker]

I can see the 'gender-critical' position is quickly becoming the 'gender-denial' position. Any excuse you need to discriminate against us, I guess.

More word wars.

Here's the thing, though. You say that there is an inherent biological aspect of you that makes you similar enough to most people that have uteruses that you should be in one category. Ok. Fine. We will say that's "female", and that the people in the category are "women". That defining characteristic that you share is called "gender". Great.


So, is there a defining characteristic shared by only those people that actually have a uterus?

Or is that so insignificant it's not worth assigning a word to?


Because, you see, all of these word wars are pretty arbitrary. Words can mean what we want them to mean, but reality doesn't change once you label something. Some of us think that having a uterus or a penis or something is actually quite significant. Those organs that we use to discriminate one group from another actually matters. We call the discriminant used "sex".

Is that a good label? Is it worth a label?

 

[sir drinks-a-lot]

nvm

 

[Earthborn]

I've been saying for a while that trans-activism hinges on preserving sex segregation.

It is thanks to transactivists that some places have gender neutral restrooms, while "gender-critical" feminists have argued for stricter segregation.

We can depend on clocking about 99% of people, which is pretty damned good.

Unless of course you meet more than 100 people in a day.

Given that starting point, if a transgender person passes well enough to not stand out, they can use the facilities of their selected gender

Basically you are saying, if they fit your stereotypes of what their gender should look like. That doesn't really help with getting rid of those stereotypes.

If most people are going to perceive you as male despite a dress and makeup, then please, Mr. Izzard, use the men's room.

It seems you are thinking of Eddie Izzard as she presented herself 20 years ago.

What's the difference between Eddie Izzard and a straight man who cross-dresses?

Ms Izzard wants a sex change.

Or should I sy, "they said".

Meow has been pretty clear about mew's preferred pronouns.

Sex goes back many millions of years, and you wouldn't have gender without it.

People might still divide people over arbitrarily chosen differences. While most human cultures divide people in gender categories along preceived sexual differences, that is not the only form of gender that exists or possibly could exist.