The Sinking of MS Estonia: Case Re-opened Part II

[JayUtah]

If you want to deny it, nothing I can do about it.

That's not Linde. That's your anonymous secondary source.

 

[Andy_Ross]

Without alarming the passengers, the crew could be alerted over the public address system with the coded message "Mr. Skylight". This message could also be used with a suffix. Depending on which suffix, viz.

in case of fire:

"Mr. Skylight to No. 1", means for the fire groups to proceed immediately to "Fire Station No. 1".
"Mr. Skylight to No. 2", means for the fire groups to proceed immediately to "Fire Station No. 2".

So what other suffixes were in use?

What was suffix 3 or suffix 4?

What if no suffix was used?

 

[Vixen]

Try us.



They are genuinely interested, they have looked it up, and they have found evidence that contradict your claims. Your disinterest in that evidence suggests you're the one who desires to remain entrenched.

Let's face it, you are just making fun of me. You think that because a current news item is in the conspiracies section you can just traditionally take the piss out of it. Forcing me to look things up and go to great trouble only to be sneered at and told you don't like my sources so I should go away can come back with another source.


We went through the Channel 16 jamming in great detail and now you are making out you know nothing about it.

 

[Vixen]

So what other suffixes were in use?

What was suffix 3 or suffix 4?

What if no suffix was used?

The purpose of the suffixes was to let the staff know which group was being referred to. Half the crew were 'suffix 1' and they met at one place and the other were no 2 and met at their designated spot.

So if the code 'Mr. Skylight no.2' came up on the tannoy, those staff members in that group knew it referred to them.

 

[Andy_Ross]

Let's face it, you are just making fun of me. You think that because a current news item is in the conspiracies section you can just traditionally take the piss out of it. Forcing me to look things up and go to great trouble only to be sneered at and told you don't like my sources so I should go away can come back with another source.


We went through the Channel 16 jamming in great detail and now you are making out you know nothing about it.

What detail did we go through?

 

[JayUtah]

Let's face it, you are just making fun of me. You think that because a current news item is in the conspiracies section you can just traditionally take the piss out of it. Forcing me to look things up and go to great trouble only to be sneered at and told you don't like my sources so I should go away can come back with another source.

Yes, your claims and sources are being evaluated critically. If you don't like that, don't post in skeptics forums.

We went through the Channel 16 jamming in great detail and now you are making out you know nothing about it.

I'm making out nothing more than that you have been confronted with evidence that contradicts your claims, and you're unwilling even to consider it.

 

[Vixen]

Yes, your claims and sources are being evaluated critically. If you don't like that, don't post in skeptics forums.



I'm making out nothing more than that you have been confronted with evidence that contradicts your claims, and you're unwilling even to consider it.

Can I suggest you look up 'Iivonen' or just 'Heimo', or even 'Channel 16' in the search function?

 

[JayUtah]

Can I suggest you look up 'Iivonen' or just 'Heimo', or even 'Channel 16' in the search function?

I'm not responsible for reconciling your claims with the evidence.

 

[whoanellie]

In the case of the Estonia it was the code for specifically a fire drill. The crew regularly practised these fire drills.

If the JAIC wrote that:

Mr Skylight paged over the PA system is an alert for the crew on board and means there is a minor emergency somewhere.[4][5]

That is another serious error by them.

Since when was a fire alert 'a minor emergency somewhere'. That is totally bonkers.

Here you go:

https://www.estoniaferrydisaster.net/estonia final report/7.3.htm

I don't trust that site any further than I could throw it*.

Vixen's source for her claim that "Mr. Skylight" was a fire drill begins as follows:

In as much as this 'Group of Experts' agrees with the findings of the JAIC under this heading [Safety Organization] they are cited here.

i.e. Vixen's source agrees with the findings of the JAIC regarding the various alarm signals of the Estonia.
A problem arises when the 'estoniaferrydisaster' only partially reproduces the finding of the JAIC and then Vixen misrepresents, deliberately or not, what is written on that site.

Compare what is written at 'estoniaferrydisaster'

Alarm signals

Various types of alarm were used on board the ESTONIA. The lifeboat alarm and fire alarm were general alarms, addressed to passengers and crew. Besides these there was a coded alarm "Mr. Skylight" addressed only to the crew and intended to alert relevant parts of the safety organisation. The alarms were described in the emergency plan and in the safety manual available at various locations in the crew accommodations such as mess rooms, day rooms and all major workplaces. The different alarms are explained as follows:

Lifeboat alarm

The lifeboat alarm - seven short sound signals, followed by one long one - was given repetitively with the alarm bells and/or the vessel's horn. When the alarm was given, the command group, the port and starboard boat groups, the engine control group and the eleven evacuation groups were alerted.

Fire alarm

The fire alarm - continuous repetitive short sound signals - was also given with the alarm bells and/or the vessel's horn. When the alarm was given, the command group, the two fire groups, the engine control group, the control group, the port and starboard boat groups and the first aid groups were activated.

"Mr. Skylight"

Without alarming the passengers, the crew could be alerted over the public address system with the coded message "Mr. Skylight". This message could also be used with a suffix. Depending on which suffix, viz.

in case of fire:
"Mr. Skylight to No. 1", means for the fire groups to proceed immediately to "Fire Station No. 1".
"Mr. Skylight to No. 2", means for the fire groups to proceed immediately to "Fire Station No. 2".

Fire Station 1 is forward on deck 8.
Fire Station 2 is aft on the car deck.



Note:According to other sources "Number One" meant "Deck 1" and "Number Two" meant "Deck 2", etc. which, however, is not in accordance with the "Safety Plan" attached as Supplement No. 226 to the Report of the JAIC. "Mr. Skylight to number one and two" according to this plan means that Fire Group 1 should proceed to Fire Station 1 (underneath the bridge) and Fire Group 2 should proceed to Fire Station 2 on the aft part of the car deck.



in case of collision or grounding:

"Mr. Skylight Damage Control" means for the fire groups to proceed to their fire station and prepare themselves for access and damage control. Alarm no. 121 sounds all tanks, nos. 130 and 132 close all scuppers and covers on car deck. The first aid group is called together.

Note: Several crew members have testified to having heard "Mr. Skylight to No. 1 and 2" over the loud speaker after the excessive heel at 01.02 hours and thus assumed that there was a fire and tried to reach their respective fire stations at the beginning (e.g. see statement of 2nd engineer Peeter Tüür - Enclosure 7.3.2.128).

to what is written in the JAIC

Various types of alarm were used on board the ESTONIA. The lifeboat alarm and fire alarm were general alarms, addressed to passengers and crew. Besides these there was a coded alarm “Mr Skylight” addressed only to the crew and intended to alert relevant parts of the safety organisation.
The alarms were described in the emergency plan and in the safety manual, available at various locations in the crew accommodation such as mess rooms, day rooms and all major workplaces.

Lifeboat alarm
The lifeboat alarm - seven short sound signals, followed by one long one - was given repetitively with the alarm bells and/or the vessel's horn. When the alarm was given, the command group, the port and starboard boat groups, the engine control group and the eleven evacuation groups were alerted.

Fire alarm
The fire alarm - continuous repetitive short sound signals - was also given with the alarm bells and/or the vessel's horn. When the alarm was given, the command group, the two fire groups, the engine control group, the control group, the port and starboard boat groups and the first aid group were activated.

“Mr Skylight”
Without alarming the passengers, the crew could be alerted over the public address system with the coded message “Mr Skylight”. This message could also be used with a suffix. Depending on which suffix was used, selected parts of the safety organisation were activated. The boat groups were activated by all Skylight messages.
4.4.3 Alarm groups
The safety organisation was led by a command group mustering on the bridge. The command group consisted of the master, the chief engineer, the chief officer, the chief purser and the third officer.
The master was the overall commander of the operations. The chief engineer was the fire chief, commanding the two fire groups and the engine control group. The chief officer was responsible for stability calculations and was also the deputy fire chief. He commanded the port and starboard lifeboat groups, the first aid group and the helicopter groups. The chief purser was responsible for evacuation, the evacuation groups reporting to him through forward and aft zone leaders. The third officer's main responsibility was to record times of events and to take notes.
According to the emergency plan and the safety manual, the chief officer - not the radio officer - was responsible for external radio traffic. The reason for this is believed to be that the safety organisation for the ESTONIA was partly copied from organisation plans made for vessels not carrying a radio officer. The Commission has not been able to elucidate whether this order was applied in practice
Various checklists were included in the equipment of the command group. Among these were checklists for collision, grounding, leakage and evacuation.
Fire groups no. 1 and no. 2 were led by the second engineer and the third engineer respectively. They were alerted by the coded alarm signal “Mr Skylight” and by the general fire alarm given by the alarm bells. A number given after “Mr Skylight” indicated the fire station where the group should meet. The call “Mr Skylight” followed by the Estonian words for “damage control” indicated that the damage control group should bring equipment for damage control and without further instructions start their work. Fire group 1 was trained and equipped mainly for fighting fires in the accommodation, and fire group 2 was focused on fires on the car deck and in the engine room. Fire group 2 was also trained in the use of chemical protection equipment. The engine control group was led by the first engineer, and the only other member was the motorman on duty. The group was alerted by the “Mr Skylight” alarms, and by lifeboat and fire alarms. The muster station for the engine control group was the engine control room, and the prime task was to relieve the engineer on duty and take over responsibility for the running of the engine plant. The lifeboat groups were alerted by the call “Mr Skylight” and by the general alarms. The muster stations were for the port lifeboat group number 2 lifeboat and for the starboard lifeboat group number 1 lifeboat. The main responsibility for the lifeboat groups was to ready lifeboats and liferafts for launching, and to prepare the ladders for use. Organising passengers on boat deck and distributing lifejackets were also duties included in the directions for these groups. Each group was under the command of a second officer and consisted of four other members. Four of these, two in each group, belonged to the deck crew and the other two were from the catering crew. The members of the lifeboat groups were all assigned positions in the lifeboat or liferaft crews. The first aid group was led by the ship's doctor, and consisted of 11 members. The group was alerted by the call “Mr Skylight 727”, and the meeting place was the ship's hospital. The meeting place could be somewhere else, and in this case a suffix was added to the alarm call, indicating the meeting place. The main duties of the first aid group were to take care of injured and/or deceased persons, give first aid and prepare them for transport ashore or to other vessels. In an emergency situation which included “abandon ship”, the first aid group was also responsible for moving the injured to lifeboats. The helicopter group was not intended to work in “abandon ship” or other situations when the entire safety organisation was mobilised. The group was therefore made up of persons with suitable skills from other groups in the emergency organisation such as the lifeboat groups and the fire groups. The ten-member helicopter group was led by the second officer and its duties were to prepare the vessel for helicopter landing. For restricted evacuation and for closing off specific areas, there was a control group. The seven-member group was led by the security assistant. This group was alerted by a “Mr Skylight” alarm, and assembled at the cashier's office on deck 5. The duties of the group included restricted evacuations, searching of restricted areas, blocking off of areas where other groups were working, and assisting the first aid group. The control group was disbanded by the lifeboat alarm, the members then taking other duties in the evacuating groups. Total evacuation of the vessel was the responsibility of 11 evacuation groups, led by the forward and aft zone leaders. The forward zone leader was in charge of groups 1, 2 and 3 and responsible for evacuation through the forward staircase. The aft zone leader was in charge of the other eight groups, and responsible for evacuation through the aft staircase. The evacuation groups were mustered by the lifeboat alarm or by “Mr Skylight”. Each group had a specified area to evacuate, from the muster station within, or in the vicinity of, that area. The evacuation groups were as far as possible composed of persons normally working in the area they were to evacuate, to ensure local knowledge thereof.Each lifeboat had seven crew members with defined duties during launching and on board. All liferaft stations had one station leader, and there was one raft leader for each liferaft. Every crew member was assigned his/her own unique alarm number upon commencing service on board. This alarm number indicated his/her duties and position in the safety organisation.

Read properly and in light of it's agreement with the JAIC report, even Vixen's reference does not claim that 'Mr. Skylight' was exclusively used as a fire alarm.

 

[Vixen]

Nope

ETA1: Even if you consider their 'home' to be where they fly from, rather than their HQ, that would include 22 other UK airports besides Heathrow.

ETA2: To be fair, their HQ is near Heathrow, indeed very near, but it is not Heathrow

wikipedia:

The airport is the primary hub for British Airways and the primary operating base for Virgin Atlantic; in 2020, it handled 22.1 million passengers, a 72.4% drop from 2019, as well as 207,070 aircraft movements.[1]

 

[phiwum]

That is the one I saw on Google just now but do read Silver Linde's description of it, he was crew.

Yes, do read that. I provided the relevant page above. Go ahead and read it.

Sent from my SM-G991U using Tapatalk

 

[whoanellie]

In the case of the Estonia it was the code for specifically a fire drill. The crew regularly practised these fire drills.

If the JAIC wrote that:

Mr Skylight paged over the PA system is an alert for the crew on board and means there is a minor emergency somewhere.[4][5]

That is another serious error by them.

Since when was a fire alert 'a minor emergency somewhere'. That is totally bonkers.

Here you go:

https://www.estoniaferrydisaster.net/estonia final report/7.3.htm

wikipedia:

The airport is the primary hub for British Airways and the primary operating base for Virgin Atlantic; in 2020, it handled 22.1 million passengers, a 72.4% drop from 2019, as well as 207,070 aircraft movements.[1]

Every ferry I've ever been on departed from and arrived at a dedicated ferry terminal. Ferries require special docks for loading cars and passengers. No other type of ship would use a ferry terminal. How many arrivals/departures per day were scheduled at the ferry terminal the Estonia was heading towards? The scheduling issues are nothing like what goes on at an airport and terminal gate. Airports have to precisely schedule the use of their runways - not an issue with the Estonia.

Your invoking airports is a red herring which has nothing to do with the issue at hand. Rather than scoring points for it, invoking airports only reveals the weakness or your position.

 

[theprestige]

Can you not just google it for yourself if you do not like my sources?

I haven't seen your sources. Only your claims.

I did google it myself, which is how I found the JAIC report, which does not support your claims. The JAIC, on which Admiral Iivonen sat as a commissioner, reports that Channel 16 was clear and in use during the period in question.

Where on Earth did you get the idea that it was being jammed by the Russians? Where on Earth did you get the idea that Admiral Iivonen claimed it was being jammed by the Russians?

 

[whoanellie]

So to sum up, the following is a list of subjects that Vixen has claimed some level of expertise in before promptly showing that they haven't got a clue what they are on about:

Metallurgy.
Security Studies.
Operation of a port.
Sailing.
Sea wreck reclamation.
Ship design.
History of the KGB and it's Russian replacement.
Operation of an airport.
The specific emergency protocols of the Estonia.
The history of the Baltic Sea.
International shipping.
Submarine operation.
Nautical crash /damage analysis.
Naval regulations.
Maritime law.
Journalism.


Did I miss anything out?

Physics
Math
Statistics
Science
Evaluation of witness credibility
proper investigative procedure

 

[theprestige]

Yeah, and experience tells me you still won't be happy. If posters were genuinely interested in whether there was jamming of Channel 16 they could easily look it up for themselves instead of playing mind games.

I am genuinely interested. I've tried looking it up for myself. The best sources I could find don't support the claim. If you have other, better sources than the JAIC report, they are not "easily" looked up. Please share them!

Or not, since it turns out the channel was not in fact jammed on that night. Multiple stations communicated on that channel, and recorded communications on that channel. Estonia itself communicated extensively on that channel.

So I very much doubt there is a source for your claim.

 

[theprestige]

Can I suggest you look up 'Iivonen' or just 'Heimo', or even 'Channel 16' in the search function?

No need to suggest! I've already done it. That's how I found out that Admiral Iivonen was a JAIC commissioner, and that the JAIC report asserts that Channel 16 was clear and during the incident, and that several parties including Estonia itself made use of it during the incident.

 

[phiwum]

Do scroll back a bit because Mr Skylight was a fire drill code on the Estonia. If you don't believe it that's up to you.

If you'll show me where, I'll check. I did search the whole document, but my OCR could have messed up, so you tell me where I can find it in Linde's interview.

Otherwise, I'll have to conclude you're just wrong.

 

[phiwum]

Herewith:

https://www.estoniaferrydisaster.net/estonia final report/7.3.htm


If you want to deny it, nothing I can do about it.

That's not Linde's interview. Okay, so you were wrong about the source.

This appears to be the report from the German group. It is in conflict with Linde's description of the two stations as "rescue" not "fire" stations. At best, we must say that we don't know whether Skylight 1 was used exclusively for fire drills. The German Group report says so, but a crew member says otherwise, and the German Group does not give its source for this information as far as I can tell.

ETA: Some more information....

The German group report that Vixen linked to claimed to be in agreement with JAIC on the use of drills, so I looked up JAIC's comments. Here's what I found (excerpted):

4.4.2 Alarm signals

Various types of alarm were used on board the ESTONIA. The lifeboat alarm and fire alarm were general alarms, addressed to passengers and crew. Besides these there was a coded alarm “Mr Skylight” addressed only to the crew and intended to alert relevant parts of the safety organisation.
The alarms were described in the emergency plan and in the safety manual, available at various locations in the crew accommodation such as mess rooms, day rooms and all major workplaces.
[...]
“Mr Skylight”

Without alarming the passengers, the crew could be alerted over the public address system with the coded message “Mr Skylight”. This message could also be used with a suffix. Depending on which suffix was used, selected parts of the safety organisation were activated. The boat groups were activated by all Skylight messages.
[...]
Fire groups no. 1 and no. 2 were led by the second engineer and the third engineer respectively. They were alerted by the coded alarm signal “Mr Skylight” and by the general fire alarm given by the alarm bells. A number given after “Mr Skylight” indicated the fire station where the group should meet. The call “Mr Skylight” followed by the Estonian words for “damage control” indicated that the damage control group should bring equipment for damage control and without further instructions start their work. Fire group 1 was trained and equipped mainly for fighting fires in the accommodation, and fire group 2 was focused on fires on the car deck and in the engine room. Fire group 2 was also trained in the use of chemical protection equipment.

As we can see, JAIC does refer to "Skylight No. n" as referring to "fire groups" and "fire stations".

Now, this leaves open the question: are "fire groups" and "fire stations" limited to responding to literal fires on board, or are they for general emergencies? Linde's interview suggests the latter, but it's not altogether clear to me.

But this is the best evidence I could find for linking "Skylight No. 1" to a fire alarm. It is obviously contradicted by Linde's interview and some of the other citations we've seen, but it's from the JAIC report which is surely a reliable source.

 

[JayUtah]

...Channel 16 was clear and during the incident, and that several parties including Estonia itself made use of it during the incident.

All radio-equipped vessels are required to monitor Channel 16. Its unavailability during a crisis (or, frankly, without one) wouldn't go unnoticed except by just one person.

 

[junkshop]

wikipedia:

The airport is the primary hub for British Airways and the primary operating base for Virgin Atlantic; in 2020, it handled 22.1 million passengers, a 72.4% drop from 2019, as well as 207,070 aircraft movements.[1]

Gosh, BA (and other airlines) predominantly use the UK's largest and busiest airport! Who'da thunkit! So how does this relate to a baltic ferry sinking?