The Sinking of MS Estonia: Case Re-opened Part II

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Why do you persist in trying to talk about things that you patently have zero idea about?

I mean I thought I didn't know anything about the operation of a commercial port but you seem to know less than nothing, to whit you make things up and provide primary sources that show that you're making them up yourself.
 
MarkCorrigan said:
So to sum up, the following is a list of subjects that Vixen has claimed some level of expertise in before promptly showing that they haven't got a clue what they are on about:

Metallurgy.
Security Studies.
Operation of a port.
Sailing.
Sea wreck reclamation.
Ship design.
History of the KGB and it's Russian replacement.
Operation of an airport.
The specific emergency protocols of the Estonia.
The history of the Baltic Sea.
International shipping.
Submarine operation.
Nautical crash /damage analysis.
Naval regulations.
Maritime law.
Journalism.


Did I miss anything out?
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Posts being "sourced, cited and properly referenced"
 
Vixen said:
The people who run the ports and airports tend to be quite separate from the companies that use their services. For example, Heathrow is the home of British Airways but the airport itself is run by British Airways Authority (BAA) - or it used to be. I doubt Stockholm Port owns any of the ferry lines, although I could be wrong.
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The ferry lines lease terminals for their own dedicated use. It does not adversely effect the operations of the port, nor offend the mores of the port authority, for a ferry to be late to its own terminal that nobody else is using anyway.

Your fantasy would have been on much safer ground if it had been about the captain being worried about loss of bonus pay from his own employer.
 
MarkCorrigan said:
So to sum up, the following is a list of subjects that Vixen has claimed some level of expertise in before promptly showing that they haven't got a clue what they are on about:

Metallurgy.
Security Studies.
Operation of a port.
Sailing.
Sea wreck reclamation.
Ship design.
History of the KGB and it's Russian replacement.
Operation of an airport.
The specific emergency protocols of the Estonia.
The history of the Baltic Sea.
International shipping.
Submarine operation.
Nautical crash /damage analysis.
Naval regulations.
Maritime law.
Journalism.


Did I miss anything out?
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Yes. Being able to see through buildings, but that was a while back when she claimed to have seen the carnage in #10 Downing Street's garden while working at #35 Old Queen St, Westminster.
 
LondonJohn said:
Indeed so. They'd almost-certainly be CO2-based (or any other heavier-than-air inert gas)
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No, you wouldn't use a gas system on a car deck, it is too big. It is used in some machinery spaces though.

RN ships don't have plumbed gas systems, or rather they didn't in my day. A plumbed in gas system flooding a machinery space means that it is lost until the space can be cleared, not ideal if you have lost power and are under attack.

I have been on merchant ships that had gas systems for machinery spaces.
 
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Vixen said:
It is not about being 'delayed by the weather' it is about good conduct, such as being on time and not causing a hindrance or obstrution to others.



https://www.portsofstockholm.com/about-us/port-security/port-regulations/
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Most delays are caused by weather, something that the ship has no control over. Ports are aware of this.

Do the ships fine the port if the weather stops them sending a pilot out?

How does running in to your own terminal cause 'hindrance or obstruction' to others?
 
Vixen said:
The people who run the ports and airports tend to be quite separate from the companies that use their services. For example, Heathrow is the home of British Airways but the airport itself is run by British Airways Authority (BAA) - or it used to be. I doubt Stockholm Port owns any of the ferry lines, although I could be wrong.
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What is your point?

If I own a terminal and only run my ships in to it, what does my timetable have to do with the port authority?
 
Vixen said:
As I recall the JAIC complained the vessel was going too fast. As no vessel travels in a straight line or a constant speed one can ony estimate. However, the ship did end up at the mid-way point both by distance and by coordinates, give or take 15km either side. So, knowing where it ended up and how long it took to get there you can calculate the average speed.
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Whatever. You said the JAIC report claimed an average speed of 18kts. Now I guess you're admitting you made that up. Fair enough, we'll let your fiction pass, since it will soon be superseded by other fictions ("Skylight" means "fire drill" or "bomb threat" is the current one.)

15km one way or the other? In other words, by your own reckoning, there's a 30km range. I guess, then, that the position of the Estonia doesn't give any evidence of that spectacular military precision, the kind that strikes right at midnight, right at the middle of the passage and right at the edge of the so-called international waters all at once. Because you have a 30km range to deal with, you can't say it was precise at all in terms of location.

(Because some witnesses claim the explosions happened several minutes prior to midnight, you can't say it was precise in terms of timing either.)
 
theprestige said:
Vixen, where is your evidence that Admiral Iivonen reported Russian jamming of Channel 16 to the JAIC?

How do you reconcile this claim of jamming with the JAIC's own report of transmissions on that channel being recorded by several stations during the disaster?
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Can you not just google it for yourself if you do not like my sources?
 
Captain_Swoop said:
What is your point?

If I own a terminal and only run my ships in to it, what does my timetable have to do with the port authority?
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It doesn't work like that. Major ports and airports are joint facilties for numerous corporations.

It would not be cost effective for each ferry line to have their own set of ticket offices, cafeterias, customs officers, security staff. There are at least three )or probably more) separate ferry companies that use Stockholm Port. There is Viking Line, Silja Line and Tallink for a start.
 
JayUtah said:
People have, and they're asking you to reconcile your claims with what they found.
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Yeah, and experience tells me you still won't be happy. If posters were genuinely interested in whether there was jamming of Channel 16 they could easily look it up for themselves instead of playing mind games.
 
Vixen said:
In the case of the Estonia it was the code for specifically a fire drill. The crew regularly practised these fire drills.
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I just searched your entire citation regarding the "Skylight" codes -- Linde's 2002 interview. I took the time to OCR it so I could search.

There is not a single use of the word "fire" or "drill". There is certainly no mention of fire drills when he discusses Skylight, though does talk about weekly training of Skylight alarms. You are just making **** up, Vixen.

Go ahead, try again. Where do you see any hint that on Estonia, "Skylight" was reserved for fire (and maybe bomb) emergencies? It ain't in Linde's interview.

(Anyone interested in a searchable PDF of Linde's interview can find it here. You can check to see if I missed anything.)
 
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Vixen said:
If the JAIC wrote that:

Mr Skylight paged over the PA system is an alert for the crew on board and means there is a minor emergency somewhere.[4][5]

That is another serious error by them.

Since when was a fire alert 'a minor emergency somewhere'. That is totally bonkers.
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Something is bonkers.

Tell you what: where did you learn it was a fire drill (only)? Not from Linde's interview. So where?
 
phiwum said:
I just searched your entire citation regarding the "Skylight" codes -- Linde's 2002 interview. I took the time to OCR it so I could search.

There is not a single use of the word "fire" or "drill". There is certainly no mention of fire drills when he discusses Skylight, though does talk about weekly training of Skylight alarms. You are just making **** up, Vixen.

Go ahead, try again. Where do you see any hint that on Estonia, "Skylight" was reserved for fire (and maybe bomb) emergencies? It ain't in Linde's interviewer.

(Anyone interested in a searchable PDF of Linde's interview can find it here. You can check to see if I missed anything.)
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Do scroll back a bit because Mr Skylight was a fire drill code on the Estonia. If you don't believe it that's up to you.
 
Vixen said:
Yeah, and experience tells me you still won't be happy.
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Try us.

If posters were genuinely interested in whether there was jamming of Channel 16 they could easily look it up for themselves instead of playing mind games.
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They are genuinely interested, they have looked it up, and they have found evidence that contradict your claims. Your disinterest in that evidence suggests you're the one who desires to remain entrenched.
 
phiwum said:
I just searched your entire citation regarding the "Skylight" codes -- Linde's 2002 interview. I took the time to OCR it so I could search.

There is not a single use of the word "fire" or "drill". There is certainly no mention of fire drills when he discusses Skylight, though does talk about weekly training of Skylight alarms. You are just making **** up, Vixen.

Go ahead, try again. Where do you see any hint that on Estonia, "Skylight" was reserved for fire (and maybe bomb) emergencies? It ain't in Linde's interviewer.

(Anyone interested in a searchable PDF of Linde's interview can find it here. You can check to see if I missed anything.)
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Herewith:

7.3.2
Alarm signals

Various types of alarm were used on board the ESTONIA. The lifeboat alarm and fire alarm were general alarms, addressed to passengers and crew. Besides these there was a coded alarm "Mr. Skylight" addressed only to the crew and intended to alert relevant parts of the safety organisation. The alarms were described in the emergency plan and in the safety manual available at various locations in the crew accommodations such as mess rooms, day rooms and all major workplaces. The different alarms are explained as follows:

Lifeboat alarm

The lifeboat alarm - seven short sound signals, followed by one long one - was given repetitively with the alarm bells and/or the vessel's horn. When the alarm was given, the command group, the port and starboard boat groups, the engine control group and the eleven evacuation groups were alerted.

Fire alarm

The fire alarm - continuous repetitive short sound signals - was also given with the alarm bells and/or the vessel's horn. When the alarm was given, the command group, the two fire groups, the engine control group, the control group, the port and starboard boat groups and the first aid groups were activated.

"Mr. Skylight"

Without alarming the passengers, the crew could be alerted over the public address system with the coded message "Mr. Skylight". This message could also be used with a suffix. Depending on which suffix, viz.

in case of fire:

"Mr. Skylight to No. 1", means for the fire groups to proceed immediately to "Fire Station No. 1".
"Mr. Skylight to No. 2", means for the fire groups to proceed immediately to "Fire Station No. 2".

Fire Station 1 is forward on deck 8.
Fire Station 2 is aft on the car deck.
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https://www.estoniaferrydisaster.net/estonia final report/7.3.htm


If you want to deny it, nothing I can do about it.
 
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