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The Sinking of MS Estonia: Case Re-opened Part II

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That is the one I saw on Google just now...

You could have just said, "No, I haven't seen the primary source."

...but do read Silver Linde's description of it, he was crew.

Phiwum's excerpt of that summary makes it clear the code word was a call to rescue stations, not fire stations. Linde does not mention fire. If you are citing to his testimony to support the idea it was a covert fire alarm, please point out where Linde's testimony establishes that.
 
If the JAIC wrote that:

Mr Skylight paged over the PA system is an alert for the crew on board and means there is a minor emergency somewhere.[4][5]

That is another serious error by them.

Since when was a fire alert 'a minor emergency somewhere'. That is totally bonkers.

Because until the reason for the fire alarm is known and finding out if there is an actual fire why would it be escalated to anything else?

Once a fire is confirmed and the nature of the fire, then it may be escalated or dealt with.
A fire alert can be anything from a cigarette in a waste bin to a raging inferno in the laundry or a machinery space.
 
If the JAIC wrote that:

Mr Skylight paged over the PA system is an alert for the crew on board and means there is a minor emergency somewhere.[4][5]

That is another serious error by them.

Since when was a fire alert 'a minor emergency somewhere'. That is totally bonkers.


LOL you don't even realise the circular reasoning you're engaging in here :D :thumbsup:
 
(a) I read that Stockholm Port is strict about the passenger ferries being on time and (b) I did airports as one of my case studies, so I do know how they operate.

Airports and Ports do have the force of law.

Do they?

What is your evidence fo rthis?
 
As an aside, does anyone here know who owns/publishes 'estoniaferrydisaster.net'? A Whois search suggests that they have gone out of their way to remain anonymous, but they do feature 'the german group of experts' on their title page.

ETA1: OK, I've read the 'preface' page, and it is full of very familiar sounding conspiracy theories. Very much NOT an unbiased source.

ETA2: Bah! Ninja'd again ��
 
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Ships tend not to spray a lot of water from fire suppression systems if they can help it. It tends to sink the ship.


Especially not on a deck dedicated to holding vehicles, where any fire would likely involve spilled liquid fuel, which would be spread uncontrollably rather than suppressed by "a spray of water."
 
Stop putting words in my mouth. I never said you could be fined for being one-off late. It is more to do with your overall performance. Quite frankly, ports are busy places and don't need to rent slots to passenger ferries and cruises that provide a shoddy service to customers and which disrupt the timetables and schedules of everybody else.

It can deal with this type of hindrance by various measures.

It has legal authority.

If a terminal is dedicated to a ferry then how is it holding anything up?

How would it disrupt the timetables and schedules of everybody else?

What 'legal authority' does it have?
 
What have airports got to do with it?

A ship running in to a dedicated berth at a terminal owned by the shipping line would not be subject to any 'fine'

What would the 'fine' be for?

How would a 'huge queue build up'?

What do those you listed above have to do with a ship being delayed by weather?



It is not about being 'delayed by the weather' it is about good conduct, such as being on time and not causing a hindrance or obstrution to others.

Regulations governing responsibility
§24
Any person who intentionally or inadvertently breaches any of § 5-16, § 17, first paragraph, or § 18-23 may be fined in accordance with Chapter 3, § 22, second paragraph of the Regulations Act.

The Regulations Act also contains directives on injunctions and forfeiture.

https://www.portsofstockholm.com/about-us/port-security/port-regulations/
 
Especially not on a deck dedicated to holding vehicles, where any fire would likely involve spilled liquid fuel, which would be spread uncontrollably rather than suppressed by "a spray of water."


Indeed so. They'd almost-certainly be CO2-based (or any other heavier-than-air inert gas)
 
Especially not on a deck dedicated to holding vehicles, where any fire would likely involve spilled liquid fuel, which would be spread uncontrollably rather than suppressed by "a spray of water."

Accommodation spaces can have the 'standard' heat activated sprinkler systems but large spaces like holds, car decks, machinery spaces etc tend to have spray systems fed from a fire main with manually activated valves.
they also tend to have 'fogging' systems rather than a 'conventional' spray.
Men with hoses are the primary means of fighting a fire. If it is a burning fuel spillage then a mist spray is used to 'knock it down' and solid jets of water are to disperse the fluid and wash it out of the scuppers as quickly as possible.

Fire aboard ship is very serious. It can lose a ship as fast as flooding.

Every sailor is a firefighter.

 
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So to sum up, the following is a list of subjects that Vixen has claimed some level of expertise in before promptly showing that they haven't got a clue what they are on about:

Metallurgy.
Security Studies.
Operation of a port.
Sailing.
Sea wreck reclamation.
Ship design.
History of the KGB and it's Russian replacement.
Operation of an airport.
The specific emergency protocols of the Estonia.
The history of the Baltic Sea.
International shipping.
Submarine operation.
Nautical crash /damage analysis.
Naval regulations.
Maritime law.
Journalism.


Did I miss anything out?
 
It is not about being 'delayed by the weather' it is about good conduct, such as being on time and not causing a hindrance or obstruction to others.



https://www.portsofstockholm.com/about-us/port-security/port-regulations/

Let's see what those regulations actually are shall we:

§5
Vessels shall be navigated in such a way that the movement of other vessels is neither endangered nor obstructed. In addition vessels shall be navigated in such a way that no other vessels or installations or persons are exposed to danger or are harmed. Masters of vessels shall take special care when navigating past any place where work is in progress in the water.

§6
Aircraft may not land within the port area without permission from the port authority.

§7
Pleasure craft may not navigate closer than 25 metres from tankers which are moored in the port area.

§8
Vessels may only be berthed, moored or anchored in places assigned by the port authority.

Masters of vessels shall keep themselves informed about the depth of water at the assigned berthing, mooring or anchoring place.

§9
Vessels may only be laid up with permission from the port authority. The master, the owner or the person chartering the vessel shall ensure that the vessel is safely moored.

§10
When mooring, anchoring or warping the master shall ensure that other vessels or quays, piers or other installations or underwater or overhead cables are not damaged and that movement of vessels is not unnecessarily obstructed or interrupted.

§11
The creation of mooring places or the installation of pipelines, cables or other lines, pontoons or temporary bridges and similar installations may not take place without prior permission from the port authority.

§12
The master, the owner or the person chartering the vessel shall move or warp the vessel or take other measures with the vessel which are required for reasons of order or safety in the port.

§13
A vessel may not be brought into the port area if there is any risk, due to its condition or for any other reason, of the vessel sinking, obstructing the movement of other vessels or in any other way constituting a danger to order or safety within the port area.

§14
The master, the owner, the person chartering the vessel or a representative of one of these shall immediately inform the port authority if a vessel sinks, goes aground or in any other way becomes disabled.

The owner of any other object which has sunk and which may constitute an obstruction or cause damage to vessels or installations shall inform the port authority of what has happened. If a person other than the owner was in charge of the object when it sank, this person has a duty to inform the port authority. If the object was lost from a vessel, the master, the owner or the person chartering the vessel shall inform the port authority.

§15
Mooring, anchoring or warping shall be carried out with the help of a tug when order or safety requirements in the port area make this necessary.

§16
If a vessel is going to call or pass through the port, the master, the owner, the person chartering the vessel or a representative of one of these shall give advanced notice the Port authority.

The advanced notice shall be lodged as early as possible, but not later than 24 hours before the arrival of the vessel. The port authority may, taking into account the duration of the vessel’s voyage or other circumstances, permit the report to be lodged less than 24 hours prior to arrival or exempt the vessel from the duty to report.

The master shall report the vessel’s time to the port authority at the latest when the vessel is ready to leave.

§17
Goods, vehicles and other material shall be handled, stored or placed in locations allocated by the port authority and in such a way that no damage is caused to harbour land, buildings, road surfaces, railway tracks, cranes or other equipment, that fire escape routes are not blocked and that there is no risk of injury to people.

§18
Before starting any major repair or maintenance work or corresponding work from a raft or similar, permission shall be obtained from the port authority.

§19
Before a vessel is temporarily disabled during repairs or other work, permission shall be obtained from the port authority.

§20
Diving and work under water may only take place after permission has been obtained from the port authority.

§21
Propellers may only be run while vessels are moored at the quayside if permission is obtained from the port authority.

§22
Any person who damages any vessel, facilities and equipment, goods or any other property within the port area shall immediately report the matter to the port authority.

§23
During loading and unloading, no naked flame shall be used or smoking take place in cargo-holds or on deck by cargo-hatches. No naked flames may be used and no smoking may take place wherever signs prohibiting this are posted.

How are you so bad at this?
 
What have airports got to do with it?

A ship running in to a dedicated berth at a terminal owned by the shipping line would not be subject to any 'fine'

What would the 'fine' be for?

How would a 'huge queue build up'?

What do those you listed above have to do with a ship being delayed by weather?

The people who run the ports and airports tend to be quite separate from the companies that use their services. For example, Heathrow is the home of British Airways but the airport itself is run by British Airways Authority (BAA) - or it used to be. I doubt Stockholm Port owns any of the ferry lines, although I could be wrong.
 
Betcha he didn't report anything of the kind.

Here's the section of the JAIC report discussing rescue operations, including radio transmissions:

https://onse.fi/estonia/chapt07_1.html#3

Much mention is made of Channel 16 in this chapter, including transcripts of extensive distress traffic recorded by several stations on that channel. No mention is made at all of any jamming on that channel, or even any significant interference of any kind.

And I can't find a mention anywhere in the report of Admiral Iivonen, who was actually a JAIC commissioner, reporting anything at all about Russian jamming of channel 16 or any other frequency of interest.

Vixen, where is your evidence that Admiral Iivonen reported Russian jamming of Channel 16 to the JAIC?

How do you reconcile this claim of jamming with the JAIC's own report of transmissions on that channel being recorded by several stations during the disaster?
 
It is not about being 'delayed by the weather' it is about good conduct, such as being on time and not causing a hindrance or obstrution to others.

Is that your definition of "good conduct," or theirs?


Section 16 states
If a vessel is going to call or pass through the port, the master, the owner, the person chartering the vessel or a representative of one of these shall give advanced notice the Port authority.

The advanced notice shall be lodged as early as possible, but not later than 24 hours before the arrival of the vessel. The port authority may, taking into account the duration of the vessel’s voyage or other circumstances, permit the report to be lodged less than 24 hours prior to arrival or exempt the vessel from the duty to report.

The master shall report the vessel’s time to the port authority at the latest when the vessel is ready to leave.

Sounds like they're prepared to be fairly lenient regarding arrival and departure times.
 
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