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The Sinking of MS Estonia: Case Re-opened Part II

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LondonJohn said:
Oh this is a whole new level of crazy/stupid conspiracy nonsense.

Fires on ships are hugely serious - and hugely dangerous - problems. There would have to have been multiple smoke sensors and heat sensors on every deck, including the vehicle deck, plus automatic fire suppression systems of varying kinds.

So..... if this (ridiculous) theory about mystery hazardous inflammable cargo suddenly lighting up had truly occurred (oh, and most events like this require an ignition source....), the bridge would have been awash with lights and alarms. And it's also very likely that an automated public announcement would have been broadcast to passengers over the PA system. Yet, of course, not one person recalls any of this actually having happened.

Seriously, how much more indication is required that these nutters - however well-meaning or "investigative" they might be - are manifestly unqualified/uneducated/ill-informed to be worth even listening to?
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The fire alarm DID go off and an automatic coded message, 'Mr. Skylight 1' and 'Mr. Skylight 2' did go off. this was a code for the crew to know where their meeting point was to deal with passengers. It would explain the water spraying over the car deck monitors: fire sprays, not seawater.
 
LondonJohn said:
Kurm could have saved himself the effort by staying at home for a month, standing under a cold shower, continually tearing up $100 bills, and reading this ISF thread.
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Kurm was the Estonia Chief Prosecutor and once Head of the JAIC. It is believed he has in his archives the original Bills of Lading for the cargo. Anyway, he seems extraordinarily confident that it was a Swedish submarine that made contact, one of an early prototype which Sweden then brought out a year later without mentioning the earlier 'accident' with the original.
 
Captain_Swoop said:
It seems the expedition has covered it's back if these mystery containers that were jettisoned from the ship aren't found. Swedish navy divers have hidden or removed them already.

If they don't find them it proves the Sweden is covering things up.
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Well, it literally wanted to cover the entire thing in concrete!
 
Vixen said:
Hummel was actually a sea captain and is hardly going to be a keyboard 'truther warrior'.
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Straw man. In any case, if you're citing him as a fact witness on the point of telephone system failure, his professional credentials are irrelevant. He either has the evidence to establish the facts he claims, or he doesn't.

https://redice.tv/news/the-sinking-of-estonia
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An anonymous article citing dead links as its sources.

You're citing Wilson, who in turn cites Hummel, who in turn claims he has documentary evidence from yet another source. Have you seen Hummel's evidence yourself? Has Wilson? Have you found any other sources that corroborate Hummel's claim? Isn't it strange to you that someone would know, allegedly from primary sources, that the radio portion of a regional telecommunications system had failed for an hour, but that the cause remained unknown to that company? Did they just not bother to investigate? Did Hummel just ask the wrong questions? Further, from the point of view of cellular system design, do you not find it strange that all the independent radio nodes were suddenly inoperative, while all the backhauls -- which share traffic with landline systems -- were apparently unaffected?

Come to think of it I cannot recall one single survivor or one single relative of one of the victims saying they had received a phone call or phone message during the disaster. Even the 9/11 victims on the aeroplanes and lifts managed to ring their loved ones to say a last goodbye.
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Can you think of any reason why those situations might be different? Further, you're the one claiming cell phone calls were made from Estonia. I'm simply pointing out that your claim there contradicts your claim that the network was unavailable.
 
JesseCuster said:
Given that it's your view that the Estonia was sunk by an obvious act of sabotage, with all the hallmarks of an act of precision military by the KGB/FSB, then I take it that you don't give any credence to this new hypothesis?
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Ruotsalainen says it should be checked just to rule it out. I have heard that claim before that some crew member/s wanted to get rid of some cargo or other, as an alternative explanation for the deck flooding out. However, I don't really believe they would be so stupid as to open the car ramp in the middle of a storm, even if Silver Linde is as dodgy as they come.
 
Vixen said:
Common knowledge. Ports are like airports. Shipping lines and airline companies pay to use them.





They are 'authorities' and have legal powers such as customs and security, etc., etc.
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*common knowledge" = crap vixen makes up
 
Vixen said:
It is believed...
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By whom, and according to what evidence?

Anyway, he seems extraordinarily confident that it was a Swedish submarine that made contact, one of an early prototype which Sweden then brought out a year later without mentioning the earlier 'accident' with the original.
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Super-secret Swedish submarines; got it. So we aren't doing sea mines anymore?
 
lobosrul5 said:
1:48 is when she sank... as you say went off the radar... are you claiming that the entire time the ship was going 18 knots including after she partially capsized? :boggled:
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Obviously, it would be going at varying speeds. However, the JAIC said the average speed was 18 knots, so I used that figure.
 
theprestige said:
What exactly is the hypothesis here? Russian intelligence sank the Estonia to warn western intelligence services off of helping Estonia set up their own?
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That seems to be the consensus of some of the survivors. Sara Hedrenius says she saw the military trucks loading onto the ship. She can' understand why her government has refused to confirm it. Bearing in mind it is supposed to be a simple accident due to a design fault in the bow visor.

Ten years later the government confirmed they had been using the ferry for such a purpose.

Russia was not warning the western agencies off out of Estonia, they were seriously angry that FSU state secrets were being smuggled out to hostile foreign powers.
 
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JesseCuster said:
It's common knowledge that Swedish ports impose fines on ferries if they're late, for safety or passenger comfort reasons?

Got a reference for that?

"It's common knowledge" just doesn't cut the mustard round these parts.
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Obviously it would be over time. Not like a parking ticket.

Even Railway networks in the UK get fined for not running their trains sufficiently on time, should the authorities take a dim view.
 
Mojo said:
Why does that indicate that they “got the message”?
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The referee gives you a yellow card. Then he gives you another yellow card. You still persist in going for the ankle and not the ball. You get a red card.


Did the referee not just give you a strong message for ignoring his warnings?
 
JayUtah said:
What I'm asking is right there in the post that you quoted and have now evaded for the second time. If you follow the quote links back, you'll find a link that establishes the context, your post on the subject. And this point I have to conclude your evasion is deliberate.
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Are you asking about this?

IMV it shows a great deal of ignorance to assume any mention of the KGB (in a country that was overseen by it up to 1991) or not knowing that the Baltic is heavily mined and one of the deadliest seas in history in terms of warfare and bitter conflicts over sovereignty of its waters or even of torpedoes, 'must be a conspiracy theory'. It shows a paucity of historical or political knowledge.

As to the unidentified man on the bridge, that was noted by the former head of the JAIC who had direct access to the reports and videos that the Swedish navy and Rockwater did. This character is formally mentioned in a report. It is hardly conspiracy theory just because you believe in a comfortably numb world where these things only happen in Marvel comics.

Maybe expand your awareness of the world outside of the USA?
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OK, so it turns out Jesse Custer is not American, so apologies for that.
 
MarkCorrigan said:
I did not spot the retraction.

However you still felt able to make pronouncements on something you clearly knew nothing about and are still hinting at some form of Russian involvement.

Speaking of vindictive, care to present some of those callous jokes others were making yet?
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MarkCorrigan said:
So how did you study them? How in depth did you go? Aside from the Winter War and The Continuation War have you studied much about the Soviet Union? Anything about the activities of the KGB?
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I'd like responses that deal with these points please?

Also, I note with some amusement that since people have been reminding you that your posts are viewable by simply scrolling back you've started to delete some.

How amazingly dishonest of you.
 
JayUtah said:
I'm asking why you brought up the KGB if you concede they did not exist when the ship sank. You know, the question I've asked you three times now.
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When Estonia became independent, the incumbent Russians were offered three bands of citizenship. they could become Estonian, or remain Russian with Estonian citizenship, or they could choose to retain their Russian citizenship. Estonia couldn't just kick them out of the country as they made up >25% of the population and some had been there for a few generations. So, whilst the KGB were disbanded the old Spetsnaz were still around! Seething with resentment. Loyal to the last. Warning Estonia not to mess with the strong contingent of ethnic Russians in Narva.

Things don't change overnight!
 
MarkCorrigan said:
I'd like responses that deal with these points please?

Also, I note with some amusement that since people have been reminding you that your posts are viewable by simply scrolling back you've started to delete some.

How amazingly dishonest of you.
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I am not answerable to you. When did you start thinking I was?

How amazingly rude of you.
 
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