• Quick note - the problem with Youtube videos not embedding on the forum appears to have been fixed, thanks to ZiprHead. If you do still see problems let me know.

Discussion: Transwomen are not women (Part 7)

Status
Not open for further replies.
theprestige said:
Enh. I can't get too worked up. Modern journalists in the west are all crypto-communist or communist-adjacent. Smacking them upside the head for their murderous ideology is probably a public service at this point. Hopefully this guy will get a slap on the wrist.
Click to expand...

Lord knows the LAPD tried to help him out, given that he was well known for committing broad daylight crimes.
 
SuburbanTurkey said:
CHUD from the Wi Spa fascist rally has been belatedly charged with clubbing a journalist in the back of the head.



https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2021-09-20/charges-filed-against-suspect-in-attack-on-filmmaker-at-wi-spa-protest

Fortunately the victim was wearing a helmet, otherwise he almost certainly would have been more seriously wounded in the unprovoked assault from behind.

The masked attacker fled the scene in the back of a car driven by Sarah Stephens, a fringe right wing candidate for governor.

Simmons is a well known local fascist brawler and has committed a variety of violent assaults at other similar rallies.
Click to expand...

TERFs and fascists, together at last. I was wondering how long it would take them to fully embrace each other.
 
Boudicca90 said:
TERFs and fascists, together at last. I was wondering how long it would take them to fully embrace each other.
Click to expand...

Seems in the US the alliance between TERFS and the extreme right is more concrete. The UK seems to be a different story, where the TERFS have much more support among the supposedly mainstream liberal political coalitions.

I imagine the extreme right railing against transgender rights makes it more difficult for anti-trans stances to catch on in US liberal circles. The rhetoric of the right wing is so unhinged and violent that the well seems to be thoroughly poisoned by anyone who isn't willing to be seen as a dangerous fanatic.
 
Last edited:
SuburbanTurkey said:
I imagine the extreme right railing against transgender rights makes it more difficult for anti-trans stances to catch on in US liberal circles.
Click to expand...
Try asking a random selection of U.S. women about your stance that bepenised people should be legally entitled to stride around the ladies spa while visibly aroused.
 
SuburbanTurkey said:
Seems in the US the alliance between TERFS and the extreme right is more concrete. The UK seems to be a different story, where the TERFS have much more support among the supposedly mainstream liberal political coalitions.

I imagine the extreme right railing against transgender rights makes it more difficult for anti-trans stances to catch on in US liberal circles. The rhetoric of the right wing is so unhinged and violent that the well seems to be thoroughly poisoned by anyone who isn't willing to be seen as a dangerous fanatic.
Click to expand...

I agree that the vitriol against us by the right is something that not many liberals want to associate themselves with, regardless if they agree. There are obviously exceptions, as we can see in this thread.

The TERFs have certainly found more success on the other side of the pond by presenting their bigotry in a less overt way. Seems to be a more effective strategy, but will ultimately fail in time as younger generations become more and more accepting of us.

I'm often encouraged by kids and teens today and how open they are in support of LGBTQ+ identities and rights. Already things have improved quite a bit since I was their age, though there is still a long way to go.
 
theprestige said:
If the only rebuttal is name-calling, then the trans-inclusionist argument is already lost.
Click to expand...

Oof- yes. & admitting that the only reason there isn't more overt pushback against the ideology is by (falsely) associating any dissent with the far right in the US.

A platform like this should have been a place to win over people.

I'm still a bit shocked by the misogyny and disregard for gay rights I routinely see in the movement. I predict the LGB folks will start to distance themselves from the TQ+ within a few years- lesbians particularly.
 
Louden Wilde said:
Oof- yes. & admitting that the only reason there isn't more overt pushback against the ideology is by (falsely) associating any dissent with the far right in the US.

A platform like this should have been a place to win over people.

I'm still a bit shocked by the misogyny and disregard for gay rights I routinely see in the movement. I predict the LGB folks will start to distance themselves from the TQ+ within a few years- lesbians particularly.
Click to expand...

The only misogyny and disregard for gay rights I see is with our opposition.

And yes, there are transphobic people and groups in the LGBTQ+ community who want to exclude us just like you people want to do with mainstream society. They are a distinct minority and are often rightfully excluded from queer events due to their bigotry.
 
Last edited:
Boudicca90 said:
The only misogyny and disregard for gay rights I see is with our opposition.

And yes, there are transphobic people and groups in the LGBTQ+ community who want to exclude us just like you people want to do with mainstream society. They are a distinct minority and are often rightfully excluded from queer events due to their bigotry.
Click to expand...

I've never said I think trans people should be excluded from mainstream society (nor have any of the current thread participants, to my knowledge)

If you don't think females (by the standard biological definition) are entitled to male free spaces, activities, and representation, then - yes, you are going to be considered misogynist. Are you also denying that females have been oppressed because of their sex?

Being told that the way a male identifies is more important than their objective reality at best looks misogynistic, even if not the intent.

& frankly I suspect you know the women you call TERFs are not misogynists.

As to gay rights, denying same-sex attraction is about as anti-gay as you can get. There's a reason Iran and some of the fundamentalist Islamic countries prefer their people being trans to gay (I know I've seen at least one right wing US politician with similar views - maybe another thread reader can remind me).

That's serious conversion therapy (no, you're not gay, you're trans!)

Again, take a look at these compilations (which are not exhaustive) and tell me you don't see misogyny and denial of same-sex attraction

https://lesbian-rights-nz.org/shame-receipts/
https://photos.google.com/share/AF1...&key=bTMzMDNKeC1vbkFkRjlqTHJKM284RU1IQ3JkSlF3
 
Last edited:
I think the issue of "misogyny" is interesting. In the end, it's another definition fight.


We know that someone who, like Darren Merager, walks around naked in front of women is disregarding their feelings in favor of his own issues. Ahhh, but is that misogynist?

Somehow, it scores extra points if it's misogynist, or something. It's kind of the tail wagging the dog in my opinion. Misogynist or not, it's a.....I need to come with a better adjective than the one that came immediately to mind. It's not nice.

If you are reproductively male, (I don't think even Boudica would claim that phrase applies to her), and as a result have the athletic advantages that go with that biology, and you decide to compete against girls, that's something that totally disregards the girls' feelings. But is it misogynist?

I'm kind of indifferent to what you call it.

There are a few trans sorts that I would say are definitely and clearly misogynist. I think Jonathan Yaniv is misogynist. I think he hates women. I could be wrong. I never met the man, but I think he hates women. I think there are trans activists who are misogynists. However, the bulk of them? I don't know, and I don't think it matters. It's a matter of definition. I think some of the activists actually do dislike women, consistently, so should be called misogynists. For the rest of them that consistently disregard the feelings of the majority of women on certain subjects? It's just semantics whether or not to call them misogynists. Calling them that won't make them better or worse.
 
Last edited:
Louden Wilde said:
I've never said I think trans people should be excluded from mainstream society (nor have any of the current thread participants, to my knowledge)

If you don't think females (by the standard biological definition) are entitled to male free spaces, activities, and representation, then - yes, you are going to be considered misogynist. Are you also denying that females have been oppressed because of their sex?

Being told that the way a male identifies is more important than their objective reality at best looks misogynistic, even if not the intent.

& frankly I suspect you know the women you call TERFs are not misogynists.

As to gay rights, denying same-sex attraction is about as anti-gay as you can get. There's a reason Iran and some of the fundamentalist Islamic countries prefer their people being trans to gay (I know I've seen at least one right wing US politician with similar views - maybe another thread reader can remind me).

That's serious conversion therapy (no, you're not gay, you're trans!)

Again, take a look at these compilations (which are not exhaustive) and tell me you don't see misogyny and denial of same-sex attraction

https://lesbian-rights-nz.org/shame-receipts/
https://photos.google.com/share/AF1...&key=bTMzMDNKeC1vbkFkRjlqTHJKM284RU1IQ3JkSlF3
Click to expand...

Transmisogyny is a common form of bigotry against transgender women.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transmisogyny

https://www.bwss.org/transmisogyny-101-what-it-is-and-what-can-we-do-about-it/

I see a lot of this kind of bigotry here specifically since few people here seem to have any issue with trans men being treated as the men they are, but it's an issue when it comes to us being treated like the women we are.

And you do want to exclude us, since you don't believe that people like me should have access to female-only spaces, despite the fact that I belong in them. Luckily in California I have the law on my side as well.

And I never denied that before I transitioned, I accepted myself as gay, even though I didn't feel like it truly fit me (because I didn't see myself as a man). That made it difficult to be with anyone before.
 
Boudicca90 said:
I see a lot of this kind of bigotry here specifically since few people here seem to have any issue with trans men being treated as the men they are, but it's an issue when it comes to us being treated like the women we are.
.
Click to expand...
The asymmetry has been explained plenty of times, but if you're interested in hearing it, I or others would repeat it for you if you're interested.
 
theprestige said:
This actually describes my trajectory over the course of this thread. I started out very much trans-inclusionary. Was really looking forward to some interesting discussions about the hard problems of sex segregation and trans rights. Instead, trans-activism has ended up leaving a very bad taste in my mouth.
Click to expand...


Does the notion of being in favour of allowing (with caveats, with screening, and with other safeguards) transwomen to use women's changing rooms.... constitute - for you - trans-activism which has ended up leaving a very bad taste in your mouth?
 
Emily's Cat said:
So far as I can tell, that's the normal path for about 95% of people who oppose this brand of trans-activism. The remaining 5% are the religious objectors who actually have a problem with transgender people existing. Most of the gender atheists I know fall at about two-and-a-half. It's sort of "No, this demand is not acceptable or reasonable... and by the way, that small collection of demands over there is outright looney."

The vast majority of the gender-atheist people I know, both male and female, don't have any objection to transgender people. We object to two things: 1) self-id and 2) male-bodied people having access to female-specific spaces/services as an entitlement. Most of us were copacetic with the way things were done previously, where individual transgender people were granted access on a case-by-case basis with the expectation of courtesy and respect among all of us.
Click to expand...


If by this you're implying an unqualified and automatic entitlement, then I agree.
 
Boudicca90 said:
I see a lot of this kind of bigotry here specifically since few people here seem to have any issue with trans men being treated as the men they are, but it's an issue when it comes to us being treated like the women we are.
Click to expand...

I don't think it's bigotry. As a cis woman I don't want to see a penis in a woman's locker or in the bed next to me if I'm hospitalized. I don't care if the penis in question is attached to a woman, I don't want to see it and it appears that doesn't matter, at least in California.
 
LondonJohn said:
If by this you're implying an unqualified and automatic entitlement, then I agree.
Click to expand...

You directed that post to Emily's Cat, and it's consistent with what you've said before. However, you kind of downplay the qualified and not automatic part, and generally emphasize the entitlement part.

As an experiment, I think the next time that someone on the pro trans rights side expresses the opinion that transwomen are entitled to access, direct a post at them that agrees, mostly, but says that there are qualifications and restrictions on that entilement. Provide an example of what sort of qualifications you mean.

You might be surprised by the result.
 
Last edited:
Status
Not open for further replies.

Back
Top Bottom