Discussion: Transwomen are not women (Part 7)

[Emily's Cat]

Ultimately it comes down to: I am not a male, I refuse be called a male, and I have no desire to continue conversation with the transphobes that call me that.

I identify as vegan, even though I like milkshakes and always order my burgers with extra bacon. But physically, mentally, and emotionally, I far more vegan than omnivore.

Ultimately it comes down to: I am not omnivorous, I refuse to be called omnivorous, and I have not desire to continue conversation with the vegan-haters that call me that.

 

[theprestige]

I am attracted to females too, that's why I'm not strictly hetero. I'm just attracted more to men and masculinity in general. I prefer my partner to have a penis, but it's not a deal breaker if they don't. I can work around it.

I would probably rank my sexual attraction like Cis Men > Trans Women > Trans Men > Cis Women, with Non-Binary people thrown in there depending.

The real question is whether strongly hetero males see in you a femininity they are sexually attracted to. Right? It doesn't really matter how strongly you identify as female, if your partner's sexual arousal is short-circuited by your male attributes. There's no point insisting that your penis is a female penis, if his penis simply refuses to get erect for it.

 

[Emily's Cat]

I think you're right in that as surgeries get better, there will be more males willing to 'date' these folks (i.e. see them as a reasonable facsimile for pleasure purposes). But unless the desire to procreate is eliminated, they are never going to be viewed as the same.

If the desire to procreate is eliminated, I think we'll have bigger problems than dating preferences.

 

[Meadmaker]

A thought occurred to me about the Darren Merager/ wi spa incident.

It was private property, and Darren apparently had the blessing of club management. I wonder how that plays into the case.

My opinion is that club owners should be able to set their own policies, so I wonder if club management is taking the position that entry was obtained under false pretenses?

If this ever makes it to an actual trial, it should be interesting.

 

[theprestige]

Transphobes won't get to dominate this discussion.

Also: This ship has already sailed. The trans-inclusionist argument is barely being phoned in anymore, and hasn't made any progress in literally years. The trend I've been seeing is a surprising degree of shift away from trans-inclusionism. From people who five years ago I would have expected to be vocal cheerleaders for your cause. Popping in to re-iterate the same tired and inadequate arguments that prompted this trend isn't going to reverse it. You'll have to do a lot better than that if you want to wrest dominance of this discussion back into more deserving hands.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

A thought occurred to me about the Darren Merager/ wi spa incident.

It was private property, and Darren apparently had the blessing of club management. I wonder how that plays into the case.

My opinion is that club owners should be able to set their own policies, so I wonder if club management is taking the position that entry was obtained under false pretenses?

If this ever makes it to an actual trial, it should be interesting.

Wi Spa is open to the public and subject to California public accommodations law, which have recently been changed to prohibit discrimination based on gender identity.

I very much doubt that anyone in the club management/staff approved of a patron engaging in lewd acts on their grounds. Being a naked trans woman in a changing area isn't what the alleged crime is here, it's lewd behavior.

 

[Emily's Cat]

I'd stick to my definitions - they emphasis the obvious external difference and when it comes down to the heart of the matter it's the instrument of penetration that you seem to be objecting to most strongly.

Don't get me wrong, I'm *quite* fond of that penetrating instrument... in the right situation and with the right person. I'm just not all that crazy about being told that I have to allow any and all penetrating-instrument-bearers to be near me when I'm naked or otherwise vulnerable.

I quite value the fact that I has the right to request a female (not female-identifying or a woman) nurse to do my transvaginal ultrasound while I was bleeding out from a hemorrhaged fibroid.

 

[Emily's Cat]

The real question is whether strongly hetero males see in you a femininity they are sexually attracted to. Right? It doesn't really matter how strongly you identify as female, if your partner's sexual arousal is short-circuited by your male attributes. There's no point insisting that your penis is a female penis, if his penis simply refuses to get erect for it.

TBF, Boudicca hasn't referred to their genitals as a "female penis". Rather they have taken the approach that the organ has no innate sex of its own, it's just an organ. At worst, the organ inherits the sex with which the person its attached to identifies.

 

[Emily's Cat]

A thought occurred to me about the Darren Merager/ wi spa incident.

It was private property, and Darren apparently had the blessing of club management. I wonder how that plays into the case.

My opinion is that club owners should be able to set their own policies, so I wonder if club management is taking the position that entry was obtained under false pretenses?

If this ever makes it to an actual trial, it should be interesting.

The club doesn't actually get to set its own policy.

 

[Meadmaker]

The real question is whether strongly hetero males see in you a femininity they are sexually attracted to. Right?

Personally, I don't see how any rel questions can be asked or answered unless there are real definitions for the words in the questions.

I think Boudica90 and her social relationships will continue to defy categorization.

 

[Emily's Cat]

Wi Spa is open to the public and subject to California public accommodations law, which have recently been changed to prohibit discrimination based on gender identity.

I very much doubt that anyone in the club management/staff approved of a patron engaging in lewd acts on their grounds. Being a naked trans woman in a changing area isn't what the alleged crime is here, it's lewd behavior.

Hey, at least we've gotten past the "it's a right wing hoax" stage. That's progress.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

Hey, at least we've gotten past the "it's a right wing hoax" stage. That's progress.

Have we? The allegations remain unproven.

 

[Meadmaker]

Being a naked trans woman in a changing area isn't what the alleged crime is here, it's lewd behavior.

Not true. There are no allegations of lewd behavior. The only allegation is that he was a man who was naked in a women's area.

The only legal issue is whether or not he is a man or a woman. There is no behavioral element involved.

 

[Louden Wilde]

I would say this is pretty accurate.

As I've stated, I lack certain aspects of the female sex. Like a Y chromosome and lack of a female reproductive system. But these are just parts of the whole, and I would say hormonally, neurologically, and somewhat physically I am biologically female.

In everyday life I am seen as female, it's only certain instances where I choose to disclose my trans status, like when I'm being seen by a doctor or nurse and I need to clear things up about my biology.

Ultimately it comes down to: I am not a male, I refuse be called a male, and I have no desire to continue conversation with the transphobes that call me that.

The highlighted is literally what makes someone female. In other mammals too. This ignores the whole reason the sexes exist.

What you are describing is better termed sexual mimicry. *


More broadly, I am wondering if this phenomena is another example of the internet helping us live in our illusory bubbles

* I actually stumbled upon an essay a few years back from a bio grad student non-judgmentally describing trans-people in light of that phenomenon. But I'll bet her advisor would not allow her to try to get it published.

 

[Emily's Cat]

Not true. There are no allegations of lewd behavior. The only allegation is that he was a man who was naked in a women's area.

The only legal issue is whether or not he is a man or a woman. There is no behavioral element involved.

Some of the allegations involve Merager being partially erect.

 

[Meadmaker]

Some of the allegations involve Merager being partially erect.

Last time I checked, having an erection isn't "behavior".

I would hope that erections are not being criminalized.

 

[Louden Wilde]

:

If the desire to procreate is eliminated, I think we'll have bigger problems than dating preferences.

First rule of genetics - if your parents didn't have any children, you're not likely to either...

 

[Louden Wilde]

Also: This ship has already sailed. The trans-inclusionist argument is barely being phoned in anymore, and hasn't made any progress in literally years. The trend I've been seeing is a surprising degree of shift away from trans-inclusionism. From people who five years ago I would have expected to be vocal cheerleaders for your cause. Popping in to re-iterate the same tired and inadequate arguments that prompted this trend isn't going to reverse it. You'll have to do a lot better than that if you want to wrest dominance of this discussion back into more deserving hands.

I saw a pithy feminist quote on the 3 stages of reaction to the current strain of trans-activism we're debating.

1. Of course I support trans-rights, what monster wouldn't?
2. Wait, they're saying what? They're demanding what?
3. OMG this crazy (loose paraphrasing here).

Unfortunately, I think there are a lot of people that are going to get hurt by this ideology because a lot of us are unwilling to voice #3 (or don't know about #2)

 

[gnome]

I would say this is pretty accurate.

As I've stated, I lack certain aspects of the female sex. Like a Y chromosome and lack of a female reproductive system. But these are just parts of the whole, and I would say hormonally, neurologically, and somewhat physically I am biologically female.

In everyday life I am seen as female, it's only certain instances where I choose to disclose my trans status, like when I'm being seen by a doctor or nurse and I need to clear things up about my biology.

Ultimately it comes down to: I am not a male, I refuse be called a male, and I have no desire to continue conversation with the transphobes that call me that.

Thank you--what this demonstrates to me is that you are not, as some posters seem to assert, denying that there is an empirical physiological reality affecting how your sex might be identified, but instead that you disagree with calling your particular combination of factors "male".

I think that's an important point that's been missed by others referring to your opinions here. There is indeed a common grounding in empirical fact.

Of course, the question of how to define sex is still a contentious one but it might be helpful if questions of "delusion" could be put to rest.

 

[Lplus]

Don't get me wrong, I'm *quite* fond of that penetrating instrument... in the right situation and with the right person. I'm just not all that crazy about being told that I have to allow any and all penetrating-instrument-bearers to be near me when I'm naked or otherwise vulnerable.

That's pretty much the position I assumed you were taking. It's the wrong person and wrong place you were objecting to.

I quite value the fact that I has the right to request a female (not female-identifying or a woman) nurse to do my transvaginal ultrasound while I was bleeding out from a hemorrhaged fibroid.

indeed.