Discussion: Transwomen are not women (Part 7)

[Emily's Cat]

There seems to be an awful lot of variation. Some places an unattended woman showing a bit of ankle is open invite to be mob raped, in other places it's not uncommon for there to be coed nude spaces. Hard to chalk that all up to human nature.

Hmm... Are there some places where an unattended male showing a bit of ankle is open to being mob raped?

 

[Emily's Cat]

I must admit that I was among those who thought there would be a lot more voyeurism following the liberalization of trans access laws. I thought a lot more men would be caught dressing up as women to gain access for peeping. Some of that has, indeed, happened, but not much.

It does happen, but it can't be prosecuted.

If you're feeling brazen, go google males masturbating in women's restrooms. Also, google transwomen masturbating in women's restrooms. Same for showers and locker rooms.

But it can't be countered, because the entire definition of "woman" has been changed, and requires nothing more than saying words out loud.

That's part of why the Wi Spa case is such a big deal. It *does* happen, and it *has been* happening, but there's nothing we can do about it. It takes a case where the person involved is behaving in an inappropriate manner AND is a registered sex offender AND has a history of similar inappropriate behavior AND law enforcement felt they were masquerading as trans prior to the event before females can even begin to get a tiny bit of traction.

 

[Meadmaker]

The fact that a great many females and parents of females want separate facilities for toileting, showering, and changing is not a victory for women, but an acknowledgement that despite females raising awareness and objecting for over a century... somehow a fair number of males (#NotAllMales ) *still* can't be taught to NOT creep on females.

If you would be so kind as to get your own sex class under control so they don't act like they were raised by wolves, my sex class would greatly appreciate it, and would withdraw a fair number of our complaints.

There's only so much you can ask for. Keep your expectations realistic.

 

[Emily's Cat]

I imagine that many, if not most, would opt for personal privacy over communal single sex/gender arrangements if that were actually an option.

Many, even most would likely opt for privacy.

Can you venture a guess as to what those who do NOT want private spaces might have as motivations?

 

[Emily's Cat]

An analogy would be, activists demand that black males or gay males are allowed into women's facilities, women object, and activists scream that this is because they are being racist or homophobic. I don't believe that anyone really thinks that the objection is due to trans people rather than male people. It's just a lazy and dishonest slur to bully women into submission.

Of course, the objection really comes down to refusing to accept that being male has no more relevance to being a woman than does being black or gay, that is, to act as though sex is entirely erased by self identity. This is a contested philosophical/ideological position, but this fact can't be admitted because the analogy rides on assuming the truth of what is contested.

Exactly.

 

[Emily's Cat]

I am sexually attracted to (some) women and to no men - not even George Clooney. It doesn't change anything if a woman I am not sexually attracted to tells me that she is a woman. It doesn't suddenly make her attractive to me. In other words, I can find a woman unattractive and perceive her to be a woman. I don't have to perceive her to be a man in order to find her unattractive, so no, I don't see how this is the determining factor.

Let's try this: Can you be sexually attracted to a person that you perceive to be a man, but who tells you they are a woman?

 

[Meadmaker]

Many, even most would likely opt for privacy.

Can you venture a guess as to what those who do NOT want private spaces might have as motivations?

We're cheapskates.

My planet fitness membership costs 10 bucks a month. They couldn't afford that if they gave everyone a private changing cubicle next to a shower.

 

[Emily's Cat]

Ooooh no no no dann! You must obey the weird rules set out by your interlocutors. You're required to be attracted to a) all ciswomen, b) no transwomen, and c) no ciswomen who don't, erm, "look" like ciswomen.

And may the Lord have mercy on your dark soul if you ever have the misfortune to glance at a woman in a bar and find her very attractive, then subsequently learn that she is a transwoman. I dunno, maybe the "rules" require you to self-flagellate if that catastrophe should befall you, not to mention berating the transwoman for misleading you in such a disgraceful manner.

What the hell kind of distorted strawman is this? This is so far off from any position held by anyone here that it's bordering on intentional misrepresentation.

 

[JoeMorgue]

I won't lie and say that I think Western Culture's uber-hangup about nudity is a good thing.

I mean when you start trying to make exact cross cultural comparisons it never works exactly 100% perfectly, but I don't know if I buy that a woman in a European country that has nude beaches is anymore at risk than one in America that doesn't.

I don't know if "visibility of genitalia" is really the yardstick (I wish) we should be using here.

 

[Emily's Cat]

As also I do feel the need to do one of my periodic moments where I stop and do remind everyone that I do sort of get it.

Society has done a **** job of actually getting rid of stupid, unreasonable, unnecessary expectations put upon people because of their sex/gender. And it sucks. It is inexcusable that it's gone on this long for a lot of it.

But the fact we as a culture haven't gotten rid of "Women should be quiet and subservient" and "Men shouldn't show feelings" and every other stupid thing we're told we're have to do because we're this or that does not mean "Screw it, everyone just gets to choose which team they are on that will solve everything" is really a good answer.

Agreed. With every bit of it.

 

[Emily's Cat]

I owe you an apology. Before I implied your opposition to trans people is clearly rooted in animus. Clearly I was mistaken /s

Let's step back a moment. What EXACTLY do you think I have animus toward?

 

[Emily's Cat]

It would probably be helpful to start by posting stats instead of screengrabs of twitter screeds or some lurid "crime of the day" type post.

Once again... "Anecdotes don't count" and "those are just outliers"

And I predict that within two weeks, you will once again be insisting that there is literally no evidence, no support, nothing at all to support the claim that at least some transgender identified males are behaving in incredibly inappropriate, and borderline rapey ways. And you'll once again frame it all as propaganda fueled by hatred and scaremongering.

As I've said, I infer that you have zero compassion and care for females in any way, and you have reinforced that inference with every interaction.

 

[Emily's Cat]

There's only so much you can ask for. Keep your expectations realistic.

I'll make you a deal: You let my sex keep our segregated spaces for intimate functions, and I won't expect your sex to act like fully evolved humans

I'll even sweeten the pot: I'll let fully transitioned post-op transwomen into my sex's spaces. And if they're really nice and well behaved, I might even be willing to let some pre-op transwomen into my sex's spaces on a case-by-case basis.

 

[Emily's Cat]

I won't lie and say that I think Western Culture's uber-hangup about nudity is a good thing.

I mean when you start trying to make exact cross cultural comparisons it never works exactly 100% perfectly, but I don't know if I buy that a woman in a European country that has nude beaches is anymore at risk than one in America that doesn't.

I don't know if "visibility of genitalia" is really the yardstick (I wish) we should be using here.

Building on this, I think the "Europe has coed naked spaces" is a red herring. Sure, some places do - nude beaches and saunas, for example. The US has some of those two, as well as nudist camps.

But those are all essentially public areas with many people, and they usually have strict expectations that there will be no sexual behavior involved. Transgressors are responded to very quickly, and harshly.

The overwhelming majority of western Europe still maintains sex-segregated toilets, showers, and changing rooms.

 

[Meadmaker]

I'll make you a deal: You let my sex keep our segregated spaces for intimate functions, and I won't expect your sex to act like fully evolved humans
.

That seems reasonable to me.

 

[Elaedith]

Judgement on appeal by Tavistock in the Keira Bell case is apparently coming out tomorrow.

I saw a little of the appeal hearing that was streamed online, but I can't predict which way it will go. The case is not about the safety of puberty blockers per se, but the issue of Gillick competence (ability of minors to consent). The judges seemed to be concerned about the idea of courts rather than clinicians making final decisions about medical issues, so I think it might be overturned on appeal. Regardless, a lot of useful information about what is happening came out of the case (including lack of evidence for long-term effects of blockers and the failure by GIDs to keep adequate records and do follow-up).
Whatever happens I am confident that GIDs will now need to get its act together after the exposure of what was happening.

 

[d4m10n]

That's part of why the Wi Spa case is such a big deal. It *does* happen, and it *has been* happening, but there's nothing we can do about it.

If Wi Spa is correct in their claim that the California law which “prohibits discrimination against transgender and gender non-conforming people in business establishments” required them to allow Merager (who is reportedly legally female) into the women's side of the spa, then there is nothing you can do about it other than repealing that law.

 

[p0lka]

The other issue is despite so many attempts at retcons the truth is man/male and woman/female were synonyms for most the history we're talking about. And male/female were always the more clinic term so we tended to call things on a day to day level "a woman's bathroom" instead of a "female bathroom" and "woman's basketball" instead of "female basketball."

So now we get the "Well I define as a woman, not a female, ergo I use the women's bathroom" thing. No it's the woman/female bathroom because those words meant the same thing in that context when that term was created.

Good point.
Our traditional definitions and structures are being left behind by the faster changes over time that happen with words and meaning, due to the internet.

how to accept that progression, or whether you should, is interesting.

 

[p0lka]

In what circumstances would you say it is appropriate and acceptable for any male to expose their genitals to females and children who do not wish to see those genitals?

In what circumstances would you say it is appropriate and acceptable for any female to expose their genitals to males and children who do not wish to see those genitals?

I flipped the sex, do you feel the same?

 

[Paul2]

By the way, it appears to me that an awful lot of the scaremongering taking place within this thread is predicated on the breezy belief that if/when transwomen are granted access to certain women-only spaces, this will open the door to hetero cismen masquerading as transwomen in order to do their filthy business in those women-only spaces.

Of course it would, that’s a logical necessity. Now, whether anyone actually does that is an empirical question, which is much different.

But, perhaps even the possibility of that actually happening has its own effect.