Discussion: Transwomen are not women (Part 7)

[JoeMorgue]

You'll think differently once you've been forcibly transed and heterosexual couplings are criminalized

Flippant remarks are not answers.

Again none of your arguments work against me because a transperson can do absolutely anything they want in my world. I'm just bad because they aren't a special exception to anything.

It's like Schrodinger's Transphobe. I'm taking a leak in a bathroom and and biological female who "identifies as a man" starts using the stall next to me and I don't say anything. I'm a bigot? Well that will have to wait until a biological female who "identifies as a woman" uses it to see if I treat her different.

That's always been the delicious irony to this. I'm not transphobe because I don't run the female who identifies as a man out of my restroom, I'm a transphobe because I won't run the female who doesn't identify as a man out of my restroom. I'm somehow bigoted against transpeople because I'm not an ******* to cispeople. It would be hilarious if it wasn't what it was.

As long as you self identify as someone who will wash their hands and knows when to courtesy flush, I don't care.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

Flippant remarks are not answers.

Again none of your arguments work against me because a transperson can do absolutely anything they want in my world. I'm just bad because they aren't a special exception to anything.

It's like Schrodinger's Transphobe. I'm taking a leak in a bathroom and and biological female who "identifies as a man" starts using the stall next to me and I don't say anything. I'm a bigot? Well that will have to wait until a biological female who "identifies as a woman" uses it to see if I treat her different.

That's always been the delicious irony to this. I'm not transphobe because I don't run the female who identifies as a man out of my restroom, I'm a transphobe because I won't run the female who doesn't identify as a man out of my restroom. I'm somehow bigoted against transpeople because I'm an ******* to cispeople. It would be hilarious if it wasn't what it was.

As long as you self identify as someone who will wash their hands and knows when to courtesy flush, I don't care.

Apologies, I later edited that comment. I realize I misattributed prestige's fear of the bedroom police to you.

 

[JoeMorgue]

Apologies, I later edited that comment. I realize I misattributed prestige's fear of the bedroom police to you.

Think nothing of it. Regardless of what you think of me I'm well aware that this is an emotion filled discussion that's sometimes hard to keep track of.

That being said I still think, even outside of that context, I was correct.

 

[Emily's Cat]

Joking aside, I respectfully request you get a grip. These anti-trans horror stories are incredibly pathetic.

Do you ever bother to follow links? Or do you just assume that if you don't look, it doesn't exist?

As Louden posted earlier: Get The L Out

Some samples of things posted by actual trans people:

There is a transphobic subset of lesbians who insist that being a lesbian means being attracted to vaginas only, never penises

you exclude trans women, you're not a lesbian. You're a vagina fetishist.

Trans women are women.

Trans lesbians are women.

If you refuse to date a trans lesbian because of her anatomy, that is transphobic.

This is not a debate.

genuine question: I'm never attracted to penis ever. Therefore I'm not attracted to anyone who has a penis. this includes cis men and trans women. what should me, and all other penis repulsed lesbians, do to not be considered transphobic?

----------------------------------

the best thing to do is figure out what makes you so repulsed by penises and see if theres a way you can fix your feelings towards trans women. actively attempting to change your feelings is important

My friend identifies as a lesbian but isn't attracted to trans woman. I've tried to say that it's transphobic, but he says I'm being lesbophobic and that lesbians are allowed to have boundaries. I always thought lesbian meant you like all women? What is your opinion? Am I policing her sexuality?

---------------------------------

You're right to call her out. She's transmisogynistic trash. Trans women have almost nothing in common materially, and society (read: patriarchy) tells us that trans women are revolting sexually, romantically, or even in a platonic sense to an extent. DFAB lesbians excluding trans women from their potential partners is not a "boundary", nor a preference. Doing so is exerting power through privilege and therefore transmisogynistic violence

**** you you terf bitch. how can a 15 year old be so ******* bigoted and transphobic. i can't believe you don't think i can be a women just becausw i have a cock. wtf. you won't be saying my girlcock isnt really female when Im using your young terf **** as a cum dump. you will ******* bow to my girldick. you will ******* choke on my girldick. fuckyou

Dear "Lesbians"

Have you considered not being a violent transmisogynist and opening yourself up to trans women?

This is just a SMALL sampling of the things posted by transwomen to lesbians, harassing, shaming, and insulting them for being same-SEX-attracted.

 

[Emily's Cat]

That is the root of the problem you think you are "solving".
There are perfectly adequate terms (trans-man, trans-women) for people who feel their gender and sex are misaligned in some manner. Allowing the language to be co-opted out of meaning is the source of the problem-not the solution.
Out of sympathy for the people who are having a difficult time dealing with their reality, we allow the discourse to be twisted. The intentions are good, but the outcome is not.
The twisted, meaningless, language is then used to deny the reality it is designed to describe and any "solution" becomes impossible because the problem becomes something that can no longer be described.

Well said.

 

[Emily's Cat]

As long as the crime stats are low only affect females, it doesn't affect you, and those other things are not things you care about even if they were to happen a lot.

This is my current interpretation of ST's position, and to date they have done nothing at all to counter that interpretation.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

This is my current interpretation of ST's position, and to date they have done nothing at all to counter that interpretation.

It would probably be helpful to start by posting stats instead of screengrabs of twitter screeds or some lurid "crime of the day" type post.

Am I to understand that the streets of Canada run red with torrents of cis-women's blood ever since the law was changed?

 

[Emily's Cat]

Jesus just everyone do Kegels and learn to hold it until you get back home and get rid of public bathrooms entirely.

Well, at least with that, males would be subject to a urinary leash too.

 

[JoeMorgue]

As also I do feel the need to do one of my periodic moments where I stop and do remind everyone that I do sort of get it.

Society has done a **** job of actually getting rid of stupid, unreasonable, unnecessary expectations put upon people because of their sex/gender. And it sucks. It is inexcusable that it's gone on this long for a lot of it.

But the fact we as a culture haven't gotten rid of "Women should be quiet and subservient" and "Men shouldn't show feelings" and every other stupid thing we're told we're have to do because we're this or that does not mean "Screw it, everyone just gets to choose which team they are on that will solve everything" is really a good answer.

 

[Emily's Cat]

Why do you think trans people want to use restrooms according to their gender identity so badly?

For about 90% of transgender people, so that everyone else in the world is forced to affirm their belief about themselves.

For the remaining 10%, because they actually pass well enough that using the bathroom congruent with their innate biology would be considered inappropriate by everyone else. EG Blair White and Buck Angel.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

Jesus just everyone do Kegels and learn to hold it until you get back home and get rid of public bathrooms entirely.

I know this is a joke, but the fear of trans people in being questioned or assaulted in a public toilet are high enough that there is a measurable increase in trans people having UTI's from trying to "hold it" until they can find a safe bathroom.

59% have avoided bathrooms in the last year because they feared confrontations in public restrooms at work, at school, or in other places.

12% report that they have been harassed, attacked, or sexually assaulted in a bathroom in the last year.

31% have avoided drinking or eating so that they did not need to use the restroom in the last year.

24% report that someone told them they were using the wrong restroom or questioned their presence in the restroom in the last year.

9% report being denied access to the appropriate restroom in the last year.

8% report having a kidney or urinary tract infection, or another kidney-related medical issue, from avoiding restrooms in the last year.

https://www.vox.com/2016/7/12/12161210/transgender-bathroom-survey

Stands in stark contrast to the anti-trans scaremongering about bathrooms that were common at the time, which, in retrospect, seem to have been totally baseless.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

For about 90% of transgender people, so that everyone else in the world is forced to affirm their belief about themselves.

For the remaining 10%, because they actually pass well enough that using the bathroom congruent with their innate biology would be considered inappropriate by everyone else. EG Blair White and Buck Angel.

I owe you an apology. Before I implied your opposition to trans people is clearly rooted in animus. Clearly I was mistaken /s

 

[Emily's Cat]

Wow. Straight out of the playbook of Reefer Madness. Reactionary bollocks intended to scaremonger and demonise. For shame.

In what circumstances would you say it is appropriate and acceptable for any male to expose their genitals to females and children who do not wish to see those genitals?

 

[JoeMorgue]

In what circumstances would you say it is appropriate and acceptable for any male to expose their genitals to females and children who do not wish to see those genitals?

Real talk.

Is that answer any different from anyone exposing any genital to anyone?

I'm a dude and I don't want to see random dicks. I'm sure some broad whipping her vagina out at you on the bus isn't high on the list of things that will make your day better.

Can "Hey just don't show anyone your genitals until they buy you dinner" be the rule?

 

[Emily's Cat]

Why not Women-only elevators, offices, restaurants, alleyways, etc...?
The arguments, as ST points out, are based upon the same logic.

I suggest talking about these with some real-life adult human females. Offices and Restaurants are just straight up silly to toss into this discussion. But you might step back and ask some females that you know about how they feel when they're alone in an elevator and an unknown male gets in. Or how they feel and what precautions they take when they find themselves needing to walk down an alleyway, or through a parking garage or a dark carpark by themselves when there aren't a bunch of people around to act as sentinels.

I think you seriously underestimate the amount of underlying concern and risk-awareness that females feel in those situations.

I'll also add that in those scenarios... females aren't naked or partially unclothed. Which, unsurprising to most people, makes a difference.

 

[Emily's Cat]

Then go tell your own legislators - who, I'm very confident, understand this issue an awful lot better than you do, and who will have sought expert advice and consultation from all interested parties - who are indeed granting transgender people these rights (with caveats attached, of course).

Oh baloney. Go research your own country before you regurgitate your blind assumptions as truth. Just because you assume that your legislators *must have* sought advice from all interested parties doesn't mean they actually *did*.

If you bothered to take the time to look into it, you might be surprised at exactly how frequently UK government does not include females and female-focused organizations in their list of "interested parties". They sure as hell didn't include any before they decided that transgender identified prisoners should be housed based on their gender identity, regardless of their anatomy.

 

[Emily's Cat]

It's a bit of an off topic tangent, but I often find myself thinking about the "women's only" railcars seen in some countries, and other more extensive forms of gender/sex segregation in the name of safety from male aggression.

I wonder how much of this is simply a cope to deal with a society that is totally unwilling and/or unable to deal with male sexual violence and misbehavior. To my mind, the obviously superior solution is to have a society that sufficiently punishes or otherwise discourages subway groping that such separation is not necessary, but in the absence of such a rigorous cultural expectation, I suppose you have to make other arrangements.

That's a long way to say I often see these sex segregated places not so much as a triumph of feminism, but rather a sign of failure. They are a resignation to the fact that nothing really can be done about routine sexual violence/harassment, so instead society has to use these crutches.

I suppose this is somewhat on topic, but not really. It's not really a question, thanks for letting me dump out my brain here.

You are correct in your assessment - they are NOT triumphs of feminism, they are ABSOLUTELY a sign of failure.

The fact that a great many females and parents of females want separate facilities for toileting, showering, and changing is not a victory for women, but an acknowledgement that despite females raising awareness and objecting for over a century... somehow a fair number of males (#NotAllMales ) *still* can't be taught to NOT creep on females.

If you would be so kind as to get your own sex class under control so they don't act like they were raised by wolves, my sex class would greatly appreciate it, and would withdraw a fair number of our complaints.

 

[Emily's Cat]

Ah there you go again with "rebranding". You don't believe that transmen are experiencing a valid condition, do you?

Pomo semantic game-playing.

Most transmen are experience a valid condition of gender dysphoria.
No transman is experiencing a valid condition of being a man.

 

[Elaedith]

Then go tell your own legislators - who, I'm very confident, understand this issue an awful lot better than you do, and who will have sought expert advice and consultation from all interested parties - who are indeed granting transgender people these rights (with caveats attached, of course).

Or would you just handwave that inconvenient truth away with the ridiculous "policy capture" mantra?

The thing is, some of us know that legislators have not 'sought expert advice and consultation from all interested parties' or taken this into account because we have looked very carefully at what actually happens instead of blathering on about what we 'assume' happens or what 'will have' happened.

Moreover, we have given extensive documentation to back up the analysis, from the legal documents prepared for lobby groups to capture policy (which recommend using exactly the strategies they do in fact use), to detailed case studies, analysis of the roles of lobby groups like Stonewall within institutions, outcomes of legal cases, peer-reviewed articles, testimonies of experts themselves who were ignored (e.g. gender identity experts on the risks of putting males in female prisons, the world's leading expert on gender dysphoria on adding gender identity to a conversion therapy ban), and more.

You ignore all evidence and have nothing but the same unsupported dogmatic assertions and assumptions.

 

[Emily's Cat]

I don't get it.

Like I said in my long post, it's an off topic tangent. There's no point really. I'm not working towards one here, at least, beyond the basic notion that gender sex segregated spaces generally strike me as a tacit acknowledgement that a given society has generally failed to address root causes of violence/harassment.

Fixed, and you are completely correct.