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Discussion: Transwomen are not women (Part 7)

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Nobody has to apologise for anything. For everybody it is true; either you like someone, or you don't.

But if someone insists that they need to subject someone to a chromosomal test before they can decide whether or not they like them, I think that is a bit weird.

And we're off into strawman territory.

Transgender identified females tend to pass better, because testosterone is a one-way street. Once those hair follicles and lower voice are triggered, they stay that way permanently. Which is also, by the way, why so very few transgender identified males pass. Some few do, but they're usually those who have heavily invested in facial feminization surgeries. which maybe ought to give you a clue there - male and female skulls are different.

And even then, when a transgender identified person does manage to pass, if the equipment they have is not what's expected, I think the prospective partner has every right to reject them. It's a bit like going to the store and picking out a nice cake... and then when you get home you find that it's actually meatloaf and the frosting is mashed potatoes. It doesn't really matter how much it *looks like* a cake, it's still not going to go over well for desert.
 
The idea that anyone has a duty to find another attractive is, and has always been, a fringe theory that nobody really need take seriously. Whether it's weirdos advocating political lesbianism or cranks talking about the "cotton ceiling", I don't really see why this merits any serious consideration other than to try to smear a broader civil rights movement with a lunatic fringe.

The dating police aren't coming.

It's a surprisingly prevalent and frequent form of "fringe theory". You keep dismissing it based on what you think 'ought to be', rather than acknowledging that it happens rather a lot.
 
It's a surprisingly prevalent and frequent form of "fringe theory". You keep dismissing it based on what you think 'ought to be', rather than acknowledging that it happens rather a lot.

I'm guessing this is another one of your "just trust me bro" assertions?
 
We're getting dangerously close to the whole "Oh so you're saying it's okay to brutally murder a transgender person if you get them home and they have the wrong genitals!" thing.
 
Go outside. I know on the internet every 3rd person is a transgender asexual who's otherkin persona is a genderfluid who's into S&M but in real life it's waaaaay more meat and potatoes.

The real world is not playing the "How complicated can I be" game like Twitter is.

Yes, the queer community is a tiny minority. It explains why they've been very easy to **** on for so long. There are even less trans or bi or genderqueer people than there are gay and lesbian people, who are already only a tiny slice of the human population.

I suppose it's a sign of progress that smaller and smaller minorities of the population are considered acceptable to discriminate against, but I don't really see the lack of numbers being much of a good excuse to do so.
 
I'm not asking if it's okay that I'll date a woman with a vagina but not one with a penis. I'm asking how under the argument being made it's the correct answer.

You have the right to only date women with vaginas... but it probably means that you're a transphobe with a genital fetish. Get with the program!
 
Yes, the queer community is a tiny minority. It explains why they've been very easy to **** on for so long. There are even less trans or bi or genderqueer people than there are gay and lesbian people, who are already only a tiny slice of the human population.

I suppose it's a sign of progress that smaller and smaller minorities of the population are considered acceptable to discriminate against, but I don't really see the lack of numbers being much of a good excuse to do so.

It's easy when you lump everyone who isn't cis/straight into the same category.

Just because they all share a flag doesn't make the entire spectrum of non-traditional sexual demographics one single unified force.

I'm going to out on a limb here and suggest the "I have a literal biological lady penis" demographic isn't exactly huge.
 
You have the right to only date women with vaginas... but it probably means that you're a transphobe with a genital fetish. Get with the program!

Somewhere out there exist some super avant-garde gender benders who won't let us squares sit at their cool kid table.

If you try real hard, you may find that it actually doesn't matter at all.
 
What if a hot-blooded hetero cisman gets attracted to - and turned on by - a beautiful, confident woman at the next table to him in a restaurant? And then he overhears that his hormones have actually been stirred into action by...... a transwoman?!

Should he perhaps march over to her and demand an apology for making him feel so stupid and cheated in his now-wasted lust for her?

What a weird scenario! Presumably he's just put the whole matter aside and get on with his meal. Just as he'd do if he overheard she was a Republican, or married, or underage, or a prostitute, or whatever else happens to be a turn-off for him.

It's not like she brought him all the way into the bedroom, then revealed her penis, and now he's legitimately upset that he wasted a lot of time and emotional energy on a bait-and-switch.

Ideally, both partners would talk about intercourse, where they're coming from and what they're looking for, long before it ever gets to the bedroom. And in that scenario, I think it'd be totally reasonable and appropriate for the hetero man to say, I'm sorry, but my sexual attraction does not lie, and I'm simply not attracted to you in that way. (Assuming that's how he actually feels. And I also think it's totally reasonable to be sexually attracted to someone who successfully passes, and have that attraction evaporate once the object of their affections isn't passing anymore.

Do you not think these are reasonable things?

I can't think this whole line of argument is going to end very well (logically-speaking) for you. But I'm sure you'll tell me how my example is entirely unrelated in every way to what you're describing... : thumbsup :

Do you seriously believe that your sexual attraction is determined by your partner's self-identity, rather than your own perception of your partner?


(PS: If you want another counterexample to do the same treatment to.... how about a hetero cisman starting to date a ciswoman; they are both really into each other, and after several dates the man's thoughts turn to sex (intercourse) - something which to him is an extremely important component of any relationship - but it's at this point the woman tells him that because of serious complications from endometriosis, she's unable to have intercourse. Should our man feel cheated and slighted that this woman has - somehow, and in his eyes - misrepresented herself to him from the get-go?)
Maybe.

People go into relationships with a lot of assumptions and expectations. A promising start doesn't always lead to a satisfying conclusion. A lot of people start slow and broach various subjects slowly, feeling out the boundaries and potential of the relationship over several encounters. Things often start casually, with few demands, and get more serious and (demanding) as more is learned and compatibility is gradually established.

So it depends. The scenario you describe sounds like they've reached a point in the relationship where it makes sense to talk more openly about sexual expectations. In that scenario, if the dude is mad it's because he's been putting the cart before the horse, and assuming the relationship was going to proceed in a certain way before he had full information. There's all kinds of reasons why a relationship might not end in sex. Dude shouldn't be getting ahead of himself like that.

On the other hand, if he's been proposing sex for a while, and instead of shutting him down she's been deferring the issue and going on more dates like eventually she'll thaw... then maybe he's got a legit reason to be a little annoyed.

But like Meadmaker said, remember where this sidebar came from: People being "surprised" that heterosexual men aren't often sexually attracted to men who identify as women. Men who pass as women, sure, right up to the point where they stop passing. What does your logic have to say about that? Do those professions of surprise make sense to you?
 
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The whole "Hardy har I'm a lesbian trapped in a man's body" thing is pathetic and I make no excuses for it.

But (sadly) it's also a logical extension of the ideology. If you're pushing the idea that gender is more important than sex - e.g. TWAW (in the same way that black women are women- a statement I've seen a lot on twitter), sex is "assigned" at birth, you're pretty much obligated to think that way.

I've seen a few a interesting threads from a 'de-transitioner' who is critical of
current activists and the ideology- here's one she did suggesting that the trans-community and clinics needs to prepare transitioning for the reality - one quote:
Nobody can (or should want to) force anyone to date/sleep with them. If the T really cared about their own, they'd stop lying to young trans people and would instead prepare them for reality.

Because whether they like it or not, reality is exactly what they're going to face.
 
Unfortunately, there are plenty of folks making this argument - especially male "lesbians" who think same-sex attracted women (i.e. adult females) should have sex with them - e.g. check out this site. There have also been a number of article about the large number of obvious males turning up on lesbian dating apps.

There's definitely a push to make it 'same-gender' attraction and claim that same-sex attraction is a fetish.

Stonewall UK surreptitiously re-defined same-sex attraction as same-gender attraction, as pointed out before.
 
It would be logical, if they were any good at guessing a person's sex at birth, but they're not. Which is the point.

I don't think you've got an actual representative sample going on here, both in terms of people confused about other people's sex, and in terms of trans people who confuse others about their "birth sex", as you put it. Most transmen don't look like Buck Angel. Most transwomen don't look like Leyna Bloom. Usually it's still apparent. Yes, not always. But usually. A few examples of it happening don't demonstrate this is anything more than the exception to the rule.
 
I've seen a few a interesting threads from a 'de-transitioner' who is critical of
current activists and the ideology- here's one she did suggesting that the trans-community and clinics needs to prepare transitioning for the reality - one quote:
Nobody can (or should want to) force anyone to date/sleep with them. If the T really cared about their own, they'd stop lying to young trans people and would instead prepare them for reality.

Because whether they like it or not, reality is exactly what they're going to face.

Watson is brilliant. I posted an interview Benjamin Boyce did with her a while back.
She recently posted this video about her detransition, the consequences of 'affirmation only' and treating exploratory psychotherapy as conversion therapy.

https://youtu.be/Mj9dImEgNqI?t=465
 
Other aspects of physique besides the face often betray sex as well, and in person I can see much more than just a face. I rarely see someone whose sex is actually ambiguous.

There are some people who are pretty truly androgynous. But not many.

It's more common in some ethnicities than in others. My understanding is shaky on this, but I glean that a good chunk of the tertiary sex characteristics (things correlated with one sex or the other, but not directly triggered as a result of sex) are largely the result of sexual selection. Thinks like height and foot size and even brow ridge vary by ethnicity. There are larger differences between males and females in, for instance, Scandinavia, than there are in, say, Vietnam. It's a fair bit easier for many people of Asian descent to present as androgynous than for people of Northern European or Central African descent to do so.

There are also cultural elements that can mask sex, even where those signals are clear. If someone is wearing a burka or niqab, all you really have to go on is the fact that those are outfits associated with a *highly* sex-segregated culture, and assume that the person wearing it must be female. But it's not like you can actually tell - it could just as easily be a male under there.
 
There are some people who are pretty truly androgynous. But not many.

It's more common in some ethnicities than in others. My understanding is shaky on this, but I glean that a good chunk of the tertiary sex characteristics (things correlated with one sex or the other, but not directly triggered as a result of sex) are largely the result of sexual selection. Thinks like height and foot size and even brow ridge vary by ethnicity. There are larger differences between males and females in, for instance, Scandinavia, than there are in, say, Vietnam. It's a fair bit easier for many people of Asian descent to present as androgynous than for people of Northern European or Central African descent to do so.

There are also cultural elements that can mask sex, even where those signals are clear. If someone is wearing a burka or niqab, all you really have to go on is the fact that those are outfits associated with a *highly* sex-segregated culture, and assume that the person wearing it must be female. But it's not like you can actually tell - it could just as easily be a male under there.

Lol

Maybe calipers might help.
 
Again the fantasy that one day some sort of transgender Gabriel's Horn is going to sound and suddenly it's going to be revealed that our coworkers, our neighbors, our friends, our family members, the person you've been married to for 40 years why they've ALL BEEN TRANSGENDERS ALL ALONG and they were so good at it you never knew is really important to people

Yeah just like that aunt or uncle we all had with the "roommate" coming out as gay came as a total surprise to all of us as well.
 
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It's easy when you lump everyone who isn't cis/straight into the same category.

Just because they all share a flag doesn't make the entire spectrum of non-traditional sexual demographics one single unified force. .

For sure - LGB- all have in common that have some same-sex attraction - and certainly a sizeable chunk of them are not so big on the idea of the expanding acronym to accommodate paraphilias.

I'm going to out on a limb here and suggest the "I have a literal biological lady penis" demographic isn't exactly huge.

Pretty small, but I suspect the messaging (the 'sex is a spectrum' nonsense, etc.) is not helping in this regard (you'll get piled on if you suggest in a large twitter thread that women don't have penises), and there are also likely a subset of dudes who don't believe, but happy to try to use it as to their advantage.
 
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