The supernatural

[IanS]

It is hard to believe that this historical event happened. And especially for the disbelievers. Because they compare the occurrence of such a huge flood and storm with human strength and abilities. And therefore do not believe. While the power and abilities of God are beyond human imagination. And this great work comes only from God. Not another power. Never compare the ability of God with the ability of man. Have you read the miracles of Jesus and Moses? Can man do that? Never. For the last time, I am writing the following for Noah. read carefully. The answers to all your questions are in the following article. Please do not ask another question about this real and historical event. read carefully:

Re, the highlight - NO! ... and whatever made you think like that? ? Nobody here (or anywhere else) thinks that individual humans cause major environmental floods through their personal muscular strength! That's an absurd excuse from you ...

... the reason that atheists (and in fact almost all scientifically educated people) do not believe the story of Noah and his flood, is first because we do not believe any such God exists to cause any floods (because there is zero evidence of any such God ... but there is a mountain of unarguable evidence to show that all such events claimed for a God, actually occur due to entirely natural and fully understood natural causes) ...

... and two - the story (ie of Noah) is clearly filled with quite childish untrue nonsense that nobody should believe any more in the 21st century (e.g. stories of how he lived to be 950 years old, or how he built such a boat at the age of 600 !!). The story is obvious absurd ancient fiction which only the religiously deluded could possibly believe (religiously deluded on a quite monumental scale).

 

[steenkh]

If humanity had been reduced to just a single family a few thousand years ago, it would be noticeable in the DNA sequences that there had been a recent bottleneck. At least one bottleneck has been identified, but that is hundreds of thousands years ago.

Noah and the Flood is a myth that is busted by science.

 

[Gord_in_Toronto]

If humanity had been reduced to just a single family a few thousand years ago, it would be noticeable in the DNA sequences that there had been a recent bottleneck. At least one bottleneck has been identified, but that is hundreds of thousands years ago.

Noah and the Flood is a myth that is busted by science.

Oh come on. Did not JC Himself say, "All things are possible in the sight of God"? (Matthew 19:26 and etc). All he has to do is wave His arms. Forget rationality and reason and go with the flow.

 

[Mojo]

I don't know what age the Hebrew bible said Noah was, That information is probably lost along with the ancient manuscripts.

But apparently the Torah also gives the same age, which suggests that if it was a mistranslation it occurred before the Bible was translated into Greek.

 

[IanS]

Hello to all of you, ...


..etc snipped here as not relevant ...

... For the last time, I am writing the following for Noah. read carefully. The answers to all your questions are in the following article. Please do not ask another question about this real and historical event. read carefully:

The above followed by 6 more posts from you (heydarian), ending with this -

Unfortunately, dear associations also think that things other than what you know are not true !! ....

... etc. snipped here for relevance ...

... Be comfortable with me. But please do not ask miscellaneous and repetitive questions. Value time and life. Hope to meet.

Heydarian – you are telling people here what they must & must-not do in responding to your religious claims. Telling us that you have proved Noah and his Ark to be true, and telling us not to question it any more. But people here do not find your claims of evidence remotely convincing. Educated people are not going to accept or believe religious stories of the supernatural simply because you think that your ancient holy book must be true because you think it really is the word of an un-evidenced, invisible, impossible god claimed from thousands of years ago in an age of ignorance when civilisations all over the world claimed all sorts of similarly impossible supernatural gods.

Many of those different civilisations had their own stories of flood myths. But the obvious likely reason why flood myths were common, is surely that real floods did of course throughout man's history; they occured from tens of thousands of years before Christianity or Islam ... in fact floods no doubt occurred a billion years before any humans ever even existed. But in biblical times and earlier, say going back from 2000 to 10 thousand years ago, when wide-scale severe flooding occurred it would devastate peoples crops, and wash away their homes and carry away their livestock etc., and that would be a huge disaster for hundreds or thousands of people in that location at the time … the crops, the animals and the crudely built homes were the entire life of the people … they would lose everything in the floods even if they themselves survived.

But at that time nobody knew why floods or other natural disasters occurred. They knew that no ordinary mortal man could cause such things (though some religious preachers probably claimed to control or influence such things), so the only possible explanation for them would seem to be that an invisible super-powerful God must be causing such things.

No doubt people prayed to the gods and made sacrifices etc where they asked the gods to spare them from floods and other such disasters … asked for success with their crops and their animals … asked for strong health … and no doubt often asked for success against their foes and enemies in battles, etc.

But that is surely how and why ancient flood myths like the myth of Noah arose in almost all societies across tens of thousands of years.

It was not because there actually were any such gods producing any floods. It was because people at the time were uneducated and the best explanation seemed to them to be to think that a being more powerful than mere Man must be the cause.

However, we are now in the 21st century and we know through modern science how and why floods occur. They are not supernatural events.

 

[Cosmic Yak]

IanS: Just to add to your point:
Many ancient civilisations have stories about floods because many- or probably all- of those civilisations started near water, either on the banks of rivers, or by the sea.

 

[heydarian saeed]

You might want to look up how the North Sea formed, the flooding of Dogger Land and all, or even how the Mediterranean possibly came into being. Then there are tsunamis in the eastern Mediterranean from things like the Santorini eruption.

There have been many, many floods over time: that one is nowt special, assuming it even existed, which isn't at all clear.

What does whichever holy book have to say about the KT extinction? Or the Permo-Triass extinction?

Hello and thanks for reading my posts. I only wrote about Noah and the flood and the flood of Noah, and I also left dear associations for information. What you have in mind and raised is not my specialty. There are several sources that you can check in this regard. Good luck

 

[heydarian saeed]

What do you think this says about the truth of the verses?

I understand that it leaves the human hand free to examine in each of these areas. And has left the search open. But if we take into account the probabilities and statistics in these relevant verses, the result is that: Noah's flood was local. And only Iraq and its environs have been swept away. On the other hand, Noah's prophetic region was in this land, not elsewhere. While I have studied in other lands at the time of 5000 years ago, the number of people and tribes were small and insignificant.
Some of the group members asked if there was a need for a ship if it was local. Or there is no place for a large zoo! A historical study and photo of the ship landing on Mount Ararat, which is available on the Internet, shows that; The ship is about the size of a football field. It is also stated in the documents that it was built on 3 floors. And to escape the flood of Noah's flood in a land as large as Iraq, it was necessary to have a ship.

 

[heydarian saeed]

You claimed...


Now you claim...

China, Iran, Laos, Tunisia, Black Sea, India, Australia. That is hardly Noah's stomping ground, now, is it? So you are back to claiming a global flood again.

Worse, Bhagavata Purana was written 200 YEARS BEFORE YOUR FLOOD.

You are unable to even agree with yourself.

The sources I have mentioned are from the Encyclopedia. Not from me. Also, in each of these areas, the name of Noah's flood is mentioned differently. Also, if an important event happens in one corner of the world, the other side of the world will write about that important event. This is normal. And no wonder. You are in the United States or Canada, and I in Iran wrote about 9/11 in all Iranian newspapers and wrote many books to review it. Is this out of your mind ?!

 

[Pixel42]

Some of the group members asked if there was a need for a ship if it was local. Or there is no place for a large zoo! A historical study and photo of the ship landing on Mount Ararat, which is available on the Internet, shows that; The ship is about the size of a football field. It is also stated in the documents that it was built on 3 floors. And to escape the flood of Noah's flood in a land as large as Iraq, it was necessary to have a ship.

Absolute nonsense.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mount_Ararat#Searches

Despite numerous reports of ark sightings (e.g. Ararat anomaly) and rumors, "no scientific evidence of the ark has emerged."[108] Searches for Noah's Ark are considered by scholars an example of pseudoarchaeology.[109][110] Kenneth Feder writes, "As the flood story itself is unsupported by any archaeological evidence, it is not surprising that there is no archaeological evidence for the existence of an impossibly large boat dating to 5,000 years ago."[111

 

[IanS]

IanS: Just to add to your point:
Many ancient civilisations have stories about floods because many- or probably all- of those civilisations started near water, either on the banks of rivers, or by the sea.

That's a good point which I had not thought of.

People built homes, villages & towns close to the waterways, rivers, lakes, and the sea, because the water was very important to them. They used it for washing, for fishing, and for transport on boats of all sizes.

In the UK, and I assume the rest of Europe, that continued from ancient times well into the 19th century and later, where canals were built connecting major towns and cities, in order to transport things like coal, and grain, and pottery etc. But long before that, in the case of Britain the sea ports were developed and the large ships built both for trade and for war at sea, where at one point (for some centuries) that lead to the relatively small island of Britain famously (or infamously!) becoming the most powerful nation on Earth.

So, indeed, throughout mans history, the rivers, lakes and seas have been a vital part of advancing civilisation.

These are all very general and obvious points I know. But I'd like heydarian just to think about why the availability of water was so important in societies in biblical and pre-biblical times, and why all those societies were likely to produce all manner of mythical tales about floods, sea monsters, gods of the seas etc.

 

[IanS]

Hello and thanks for reading my posts. I only wrote about Noah and the flood and the flood of Noah, and I also left dear associations for information. What you have in mind and raised is not my specialty. There are several sources that you can check in this regard. Good luck

We are not asking you to teach about those things! On the contrary - you are being asked to make the effort to go and learn about it yourself! ... because you appear to be unaware of even the most basic & fundemental facts about the world that you live in!

 

[MarkCorrigan]

Heydarian, answer my questions. Stop just telling us that we are wrong and provide evidence if you can.

Of course, you can't, which is why you're not even trying.

 

[Jack by the hedge]

Oh come on. Did not JC Himself say, "All things are possible in the sight of God"? (Matthew 19:26 and etc). All he has to do is wave His arms. Forget rationality and reason and go with the flow.

Yes indeed. If you just put rationality and reason aside and say there was a supernatural flood then why not? Why not have a supernatural rainstorm which drops a mound of supernatural water, say 100 miles wide and a few thousand feet tall in the middle, then have it drain away and just disappear a few weeks later?

If it's supernatural, why should it have to obey physics?

I mean, good luck persuading anyone to believe it who isn't already invested in being someone who truly believes it, but if you're going to invoke the supernatural, you don't need to follow all those tiresome rules about having water do what real water does. Just say it was magic.

 

[Chanakya]

Never mind, deleted.

 

[Mojo]

What do you think this says about the truth of the verses?

I understand that it leaves the human hand free to examine in each of these areas. And has left the search open. But if we take into account the probabilities and statistics in these relevant verses… [irrelevant waffling removed]

If, as you have said, the verses contradict each other, can all the verses be true?

 

[Carrot Flower King]

Hello and thanks for reading my posts. I only wrote about Noah and the flood and the flood of Noah, and I also left dear associations for information. What you have in mind and raised is not my specialty. There are several sources that you can check in this regard. Good luck

There were reasons I mentioned the probable means of formation of the Mediterranean and also eastern Mediterranean tsunamis, such as the Santorini one, which have a bearing on this part of the discussion...

The flooding of Dogger Land probably less so, but possibly still relevant.

 

[IanS]

Some of the group members asked if there was a need for a ship if it was local. Or there is no place for a large zoo! A historical study and photo of the ship landing on Mount Ararat, which is available on the Internet, shows that; The ship is about the size of a football field. It is also stated in the documents that it was built on 3 floors. And to escape the flood of Noah's flood in a land as large as Iraq, it was necessary to have a ship.

Absolute nonsense.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mount_Ararat#Searches


Quote:
Despite numerous reports of ark sightings (e.g. Ararat anomaly) and rumors, "no scientific evidence of the ark has emerged."[108] Searches for Noah's Ark are considered by scholars an example of pseudoarchaeology.[109][110] Kenneth Feder writes, "As the flood story itself is unsupported by any archaeological evidence, it is not surprising that*there is no archaeological evidence for the existence of an impossibly large boat dating to 5,000 years ago."[111

Heydarian – why on Earth do you believe such obvious untrue nonsense. OK, I did not put a question mark there, because we all know why religious people, such as yourself, believe these claims about history (or even about science!) proving such things as Noah's Ark … It's because you have become so brainwashed and totally deluded by the vast mass of constant lies poured out by your religion (and similarly poured out by Christianity and most other well known religions).

This story of Noah's Ark is just like countless other claims from religions such as Islam and Christianity, where the heads of the religion solemnly swear to the believers/followers that all sorts of godly miracles have been proved true by all sorts of archaeological finds, photographs, and claimed “scientific” studies. But where a moments honest study by you (or any of the other believers) would show that none of those claims, not a single one, has ever been supported by genuinely independent scientists publishing the results in any real science research journals … in fact on the contrary, on the few occasions where real scientists have wasted their time investigating any of these religious claims, the result has always been a complete and very obvious rebuttal of all such religious claims … i.e. the actual, true, scientific studies always show that the religious claims are simply fraudulent!

The most obvious and best documented example is the Turin Shroud, where Christian groups have claimed all manner of scientific tests which they say prove the shrouds authenticity as the 1st century burial shroud of Jesus. But the actual honest truth is that Carbon-14 dating of the shroud has clearly and unarguably shown that the shroud dates from around 1300AD, which is actually very close to first known authenticated date when that Shroud was first seen by anyone. But still, that has not stopped various Christian Shroud Groups making all sorts of claims about them finding new scientific evidence to show the C14 dates must have been wrong and that the Shroud is after all the genuine cloth of Jesus. It's just complete dishonesty and fraud from those shroud groups, but millions of Christians all over the world believe it … AFAIK the Pope and the leaders of the Catholic church still continue to say that the Shroud is likely to be, or could be, the genuine thing. In fact the Pope continues to employ a group of what he claims are "real scientists", who every year agree with the Pope that various people have have performed true genuine miracles; and the Pope then declares them to be "Saints" ... it's all completely untrue, and in modern times the last few Pope's at least must very well know that they are lying their heads off to the deluded congreagation of millions of believers, but still the Pope and his Cardinals insist that it's all true and all ordained by God ... it's one vast mass of deliberate lies year after year ... but that does not seem to matter to them!


Your belief in the Arc, is the same thing. And its' the same thing again for numerous claimed “genuine” artefacts from the times of Jesus, and probably also any claimed artefacts from the time Mohamed in the Koran. I.e., all sorts objects claimed as absolute fact of being confirmation for all sorts of miraculous stories from the holy books … but none of it is actually true! … not one single thing … every independently tested and checked claim has turned out to be complete religious lies from start to finish!

 

[Mojo]

This story of Noah's Ark is just like countless other claims from religions…

Perhaps the ludicrous tales serve the same purpose as the grammatical errors and spelling mistakes in advance-fee scam emails, and are intended eliminate the insufficiently credulous before the people trying to convert them have wasted too much time. After all, if you’re setting up a religion you need to identify your market. People who are capable of believing that a small family built a ship big enough to hold two or more of every species of animal, and all their feed, and were then able to feed and muck out all those animals for five months with no additional supplies, is probably capable of believing pretty much anything. If they believe that they can try them on Noah living to a ridiculous age, or Jonah and the whale, or whatever.

Transubstantiation is going to be easy after that lot.

 

[gabeygoat]

The sources I have mentioned are from the Encyclopedia. Not from me. Also, in each of these areas, the name of Noah's flood is mentioned differently. Also, if an important event happens in one corner of the world, the other side of the world will write about that important event. This is normal. And no wonder. You are in the United States or Canada, and I in Iran wrote about 9/11 in all Iranian newspapers and wrote many books to review it. Is this out of your mind ?!

It is some what easier to communicate worldwide today than it was in Noah's time.