The supernatural

[Mojo]

Actually, he didn’t say the ark and it’s landing site can be seen, only the mountain.

No, he said the ark and its landing site can be seen:

The wreckage of Noah's ark and its landing site on Mount Judi in the Ararat Mountains can be seen.

 

[Carrot Flower King]

Actually, he didn’t say the ark and it’s landing site can be seen, only the mountain.

This is much like how bible bashers think that the bible is proven true because historical cities are mentioned in the bible.

The same method can be used to prove that Harry Potter is a true story because London is mentioned.

And the films must be documentaries, as Alnwick Castle and Durham Cathedral and the viaduct at Glenfinnan are all visibly used...

Mind, enough folk acted like the films were real: I was based just along from Alnwick Castle for several years and during summer you couldn't move for folk standing in the street and mumbling "Harry Potter!"

 

[heydarian saeed]

Hello, heydarian.

I'm going to make more than one point, and given the translation software and all, and in order not to end up creating unnecessary confusion, I'm going to enumerate them here for your convenience:

1. When I asked, in that post of mine that you quoted, in brief and without spelling it out, "if it was just a local flood, why would an Ark be needed at all?", what I'd meant was:
   
   In the biblical (and Quranic) story, the Ark was a device to ensure the continuation of the species through the flood, right? Because the whole world was going underwater, therefore all life would have died out. Therefore, in order to ensure that life continues, God instructed Noah to carry in his Ark a male and a female of different species, so that these could reproduce and ...well, have life carry on afterwards. That at any rate is the Biblical version.
   
   You're saying that the Quran differs from the Bible in this, and says the flood was local, not global. So then, if the flood was only local, then where is the need for all of that, at all? I don't see that it makes much sense to take such elaborate measures to repopulate one single (local) portion of land that, after the flood, would be fully connected with the rest of the world once again. I can understand --- following the logic of the story --- that Noah himself God wanted to save, and his kin, and maybe ensure the continuity of his bloodline. But why would he need to carry pairs of different species of birds and animals and reptiles and what-have-you? This was just a local flood, remember? Why go to all that trouble, carrying that zoo in that Ark?
   
   
2. Like others have asked you, if this flood was only local, then how could the waters rise up to cover the peak of Ararat? You don't need pen or paper or calculator or computer to just mentally envision it, and realize that the waters could simply not have risen that high at all, if all it was was a local affair.
   
   
3. You've already seen my post #1009.
   
   I'm afraid, heydarian, it seems you're in error in claiming that the Quran states that the flood was local. The fact is, apparently, that the Quran does not actually say anything at all about whether the flood was local or global. That is simply a matter of interpretation. And nor, apparently, is the interpretation unanimous. Apparently many scholars believe, as did those of earlier times, that the flood was a global affair, while some others, like you, believe it was local.
   
   That is, your view is not what is actually stated in the Quran, it is merely one possible interpretation, and not one that is unanimously held.
   
   (Although, to be fair, your particular interpretation may well be the majority interpretation. I've no clue if that's actually the case, like I said my "research" into this amounts to no more than some random google clicks. If that is how it is, then perhaps you could clarify that.)
   
   
4. You're now claiming this flood that is mentioned in the Quran is "historically" documented. Can you show us what historical sources --- that are not derivative of the Quran itself --- back up that particular story?

You too, heydarian. God bless. (I'm not sure the translation software will do justice to the term "FSM", so let's just go with "God" ... )

Hello to all of you, dear associations.
In the Qur'an: Noah is mentioned in seven places. Suras 7 - 10 - 11 - 23 - 26 - 54 - 71 and of all these cases, Surah Hood (11) is mentioned in more detail, because the story of that prophet has lasted in twenty-five verses, ie from verses 25 to 49.
There are more verses that confirm the regional nature of the storm than there are verses that prove the universality and universality of the storm. This flood or flood was only in the area of the Prophet Noah in the land of Iraq and the surrounding areas.
It is hard to believe that this historical event happened. And especially for the disbelievers. Because they compare the occurrence of such a huge flood and storm with human strength and abilities. And therefore do not believe. While the power and abilities of God are beyond human imagination. And this great work comes only from God. Not another power. Never compare the ability of God with the ability of man. Have you read the miracles of Jesus and Moses? Can man do that? Never. For the last time, I am writing the following for Noah. read carefully. The answers to all your questions are in the following article. Please do not ask another question about this real and historical event. read carefully:

 

[heydarian saeed]

Robert Ballard, a well-known archaeologist known for his Archaeological Finds at the bottom of the water, spoke to IBS News about his findings. His research team has explored the depths of the Black Sea off the coast of Turkey in search of artifacts from an ancient civilization that sank under the Flood of Noah. IBS News has dedicated two sections of the "Back to the Beginning" program to this issue.
The force created by the flood was 200 times the force of water falling from Niagara Falls, destroying everything in its path. Ballard and his team, absorbed in the findings of the two scientists, decide to look into the matter. "We went there to look for (the effects of) the flood," he says. "It was not just the slow flow of water caused by rising sea levels, but a huge flood ... and the earth was submerged."
They discovered an ancient coastline 400 meters below the surface. This proved to Ballard that a catastrophic event had taken place in the Black Sea. Ballard says carbon crusts along the coastline can be used to estimate the time frame of the catastrophe, which he says dates back to about 5,000 BC. Some experts believe that this is about the time of Noah's flood.

 

[heydarian saeed]

Says Ballard:
"It must have been a very bad day, and at a magical time, it happened and violently flooded this area and many homes and settlements in an area of 150,000 square kilometers," says Ballard.
Karen Armstrong, author of The History of God, argues that no matter how accurate the details of Noah's story, it and all Bible stories inform us of "our present world problems." Ballard admits that not everyone agrees with his conclusions about the timing and extent of the flood, but he is confident that he is on track to find a biblical theme. "We are finding structures that seem to be man-made," he says. "Right now, we are focused on that."
Ballard and his team first (only) discovered a wealth of ancient pottery, but later made other important discoveries. Ballard found a ship and its crew in the Black Sea last year. "It was an all-ancient ship that survived, just like a wooden yard," he says. The ship he found dates back to 500 BC, but he says finding it has given him hope of finding older things.

 

[heydarian saeed]

The earliest known records of the Flood are inscriptions from the ancient Sumerians and Babylonians. These inscriptions were written in three thousand years BC, which is why the Sumerians and Babylonians wrote the story of the storm before any other nation. The storm is in the Sumerian inscription rock, called Ziogido. And to the cuneiform.
The events of the Sumerian and Babylonian hurricanes are somewhat consistent with the hurricane events recorded in the Torah; Because in the Sumerian and Babylonian stories, it is stated that the storm ship was covered with bitumen and the builder of the ship is the hero of the storm. This description is also given in Genesis in the Torah. In both documents it is stated that the gods informed a person of the occurrence of the storm and he sat in a boat with his family members and put a pair of animals in each of them and escaped from the storm.
Also in both narrations, the duration of the storm is known as seven days. In the time of the storm, Ziogido or Ziodsura sacrifices and worships before the god of the sky and Enlil, the head of the gods. In Dilmon, Eno and Enlil give Ziogido eternal life. Zygido literally means to see life. The text does not say why Enki decided to destroy humanity.

 

[heydarian saeed]

Among the epic stories of Gilgamesh, written in Sumerian tablets around 2,500 BC, is a reference to the story of the Sumerian and Babylonian storms; In that story, the epic story of Gilgamesh, a meeting takes place between Gilgamesh and Otanapishtim, Gilgamesh hears how the great storm happened from Otanapishtim. Gilgamesh travels through the forests and seas to visit Otanapishtim and meets him on an island in the middle of the sea; Otanapishtim narrates to Gilgamesh what happened to him in the storm.
According to the Torah, the sons of Noah who came out of the ark were Sam, Ham, and Japheth. Noah lived three hundred and fifty years after the flood and lived nine hundred and fifty years throughout his life.

 

[heydarian saeed]

The Flood of Noah occurred in 2900 BC because modern evidence shows that in 2900 BC there was a flood and flood in Iraq that destroyed cities. The wreckage of Noah's ark is on Mount Ararat near the border with Iraqi Kurdistan.
Historical sources:
- In Iranian civilization, the story of the storm is mentioned in the book Vandidad Avesta.
-In Chinese civilization, shojing, or "history book," probably written around 500 BC or so, refers to Noah's Flood in the early chapters.
-In Lao civilization, according to the texts of Matsia Purana, Shatapato Brahmana in Hindu religious culture, "Bhagavata Purana" is one of the works of Vyasa, written at the beginning of the Kali Yoga period. (C. 3100 BC) and describes the Flood of Noah.
- The book of Samuel Kramer (1340), Sumerian tablets, translated by Davood Rasaei
- Shanhaijing, Chapter 18 The Last Two Paragraphs, translated by Anne Birrells
- Genesis 6: 6 - Genesis 6: 9 - Genesis 6:16
- Shujing (History Book, Chapter 1 Tang Document), Yao Canon, translated by James Legges
- Tabari
- International Bible Encyclopedia Standard, Ed Jeffrey W Bromiley, Michigan: William B Eerdmans, 1979 - 1988, SV "Ararat" (by W W Gasque).
- Arthur Jeffrey, Foreign Vocabulary from the Quran, Baruda 1938.
- A collection of histories and stories, published by Mohammad Taqiyya Bahar
- Book of Al-Masalak and Al-Mamalak. Edited by Fanliofen and Andrifrieh, Tunisia, 1992
- The Book of the King and the King.
- The myths of Australia and the people of Andaman
scientific resources:
• - Black Sea flood hypothesis
• - Searches for Noah's Ark
• In Search of Noah's Ark
• Mountains of Ararat
• Ararat anomaly
• Noah's Ark replicas and derivatives

 

[heydarian saeed]

Unfortunately, dear associations also think that things other than what you know are not true !! While this is not a good idea. By the way, I do not know Flons. And I do not know what you mean? But I recommend that you do not give another name (like me) to someone who is not from your group and does not agree with you. This is not good for your character. And it challenges your character.
I will be with you as long as God wills. And I will stay. Do not worry about me. Think about your health. And worry about your health. I'm fine. And I do not know better. And I do not know a better place than you right now. Be comfortable with me. But please do not ask miscellaneous and repetitive questions. Value time and life. Hope to meet.

 

[Carrot Flower King]

You might want to look up how the North Sea formed, the flooding of Dogger Land and all, or even how the Mediterranean possibly came into being. Then there are tsunamis in the eastern Mediterranean from things like the Santorini eruption.

There have been many, many floods over time: that one is nowt special, assuming it even existed, which isn't at all clear.

What does whichever holy book have to say about the KT extinction? Or the Permo-Triass extinction?

 

[Mojo]

There are more verses that confirm the regional nature of the storm than there are verses that prove the universality and universality of the storm.

What do you think this says about the truth of the verses?

 

[abaddon]

You claimed...

Hello. Exactly. Only in the prophetic region of Noah came water from the earth and the sky and a sea was created and only Noah's ark was saved. This has not been a global flood.

Now you claim...

The Flood of Noah occurred in 2900 BC because modern evidence shows that in 2900 BC there was a flood and flood in Iraq that destroyed cities. The wreckage of Noah's ark is on Mount Ararat near the border with Iraqi Kurdistan.
Historical sources:
- In Iranian civilization, the story of the storm is mentioned in the book Vandidad Avesta.
-In Chinese civilization, shojing, or "history book," probably written around 500 BC or so, refers to Noah's Flood in the early chapters.
-In Lao civilization, according to the texts of Matsia Purana, Shatapato Brahmana in Hindu religious culture, "Bhagavata Purana" is one of the works of Vyasa, written at the beginning of the Kali Yoga period. (C. 3100 BC) and describes the Flood of Noah.
- The book of Samuel Kramer (1340), Sumerian tablets, translated by Davood Rasaei
- Shanhaijing, Chapter 18 The Last Two Paragraphs, translated by Anne Birrells
- Genesis 6: 6 - Genesis 6: 9 - Genesis 6:16
- Shujing (History Book, Chapter 1 Tang Document), Yao Canon, translated by James Legges
- Tabari
- International Bible Encyclopedia Standard, Ed Jeffrey W Bromiley, Michigan: William B Eerdmans, 1979 - 1988, SV "Ararat" (by W W Gasque).
- Arthur Jeffrey, Foreign Vocabulary from the Quran, Baruda 1938.
- A collection of histories and stories, published by Mohammad Taqiyya Bahar
- Book of Al-Masalak and Al-Mamalak. Edited by Fanliofen and Andrifrieh, Tunisia, 1992
- The Book of the King and the King.
- The myths of Australia and the people of Andaman

China, Iran, Laos, Tunisia, Black Sea, India, Australia. That is hardly Noah's stomping ground, now, is it? So you are back to claiming a global flood again.

Worse, Bhagavata Purana was written 200 YEARS BEFORE YOUR FLOOD.

You are unable to even agree with yourself.

 

[Chanakya]

1. heydarian, you've not addressed that very basic question, that I've now asked twice. I'm afraid your repeatedly avoiding this issue, while at the same time holding forth at length on other parts of my comment, is starting to smack of deliberate cherry-picking. I'll request you to squarely answer this question, that I'll ask again (and for the third time now) in the next paragraph, and, if you don't have an answer, to clearly admit that you don't.
   
   If the flood was merely local, then what was the need to carry all of those animals up in that Ark? If as you say the flood only covered the area in and around Iraq, then as soon as the waters receded, that land would have been connected with the rest of the world again. That whole zoo thing, the carrying of animals inside the Ark, makes no sense at all, in the context of a local flood, does it?
   
   
   
2. Not that it really matters one whit, except only as an academic discussion of what is written in the Quran, but you're now claiming that Surah 11 contains explicit statements that the flood was local. Well, here's a link to Surah 11 that I found online. (Click the underlined word "link" in the previous sentence to access the link.) I don't see any explicit statement there that the flood was local.
   
   The link I'd supplied in my earlier post clearly stated that this is not a question of what is stated in the Quran, but a question of interpretation, and that the interpretation isn't unanimous, either way. Nothing in Surah 11 seems to contradict what I'd said earlier (at least going by this particular translation that I've linked to).
   
   
   
3. Finally, while I haven't gone in detail through the whole mass of references you've supplied --- and absolutely, you've done well to present them here, and one ideally would indeed take the time and effort to engage with all of them in full detail in order to do them complete justice --- but here's what I observe basis a cursory look-through :

• While what you present as some historical study refers to a flood in around 5000 BC, you suggest that your Quranic sources puts that date at around 2900 BC. Don't you see the contradiction?
  
  (There's also, apparently, a ship found dated to around 500 BC, but that in any case seems to only be an incidental observation, in that it only gives them, as you say, "hope of finding older things".)
  
  
• Even assuming the historicity of the flood is established, floods are not such a rare event, you know, across timeframes spanning millinnia. We're talking about a huge flood that literally covered Ararat. You've produced nothing here that even purports to point at such a massive flood, leave alone successfully establishes that claim.
  
  
• Although admittedly, your own representation of Ballard does say that "the earth was submerged". Even taking that at face value, even taking that literally --- not that that is likely to be the case, I'm sure, on actual examination of the source material, but still, for now, granting you this for the sake of argument --- nevertheless, a literal reading of "the earth was submerged" once again takes us back to the Bible's description of a global flood, and not the local flood that you're claiming here. You can't have it both ways, you know.

​

 

[MarkCorrigan]

Heydarian why are you continuing to ignore me?

 

[Carrot Flower King]

What do we reckon on our friend mixing his Ballards up and meaning JG?

 

[Scorpion]

. Noah lived three hundred and fifty years after the flood and lived nine hundred and fifty years throughout his life.

The point is that it is believed the bible was miss translated by an early scribe, who got the numbers wrong, probably when the early bible was translated into Greek. The original text probably had a normal age span for Noah.

The fact the Quran exactly copies this numbering error shows it was copied from an early flawed translation of the bible.

 

[Mojo]

The point is that it is believed the bible was miss translated by an early scribe, who got the numbers wrong, probably when the early bible was translated into Greek. The original text probably had a normal age span for Noah.

How old did the Hebrew version say he was? Presumably the Greek translation was ultimately derived from that.

 

[P.J. Denyer]

This sounds remarkably like several experience I had which were inspired by an interseting mixture of what should have been a "sociable dose" of mushrooms, topped by some cheap sherry and a whole load of homegrown weed...

That sherry will get you every time.

 

[Scorpion]

How old did the Hebrew version say he was? Presumably the Greek translation was ultimately derived from that.

I don't know what age the Hebrew bible said Noah was, That information is probably lost along with the ancient manuscripts. I got the following information from a web site.

Quote:

When translating Genesis they screwed up the numbering system. This shows directly that the Quran copied a translation of Genesis and therefore the Quran didn't come from God.


The incredible numbers in Genesis 5 were the result of an ancient scribe mistranslating some archaic pre-cuneiform numbers into cuneiform sexagesimal numbers. The incredible numbers in the Sumerian King List were also mistranslated by another ancient scribe. This book successfully matches the Genesis 5 numbers to the Sumerian King List numbers.

 

[IanS]

Among the epic stories of Gilgamesh, written in Sumerian tablets around 2,500 BC, is a reference to the story of the Sumerian and Babylonian storms; In that story, the epic story of Gilgamesh, a meeting takes place between Gilgamesh and Otanapishtim, Gilgamesh hears how the great storm happened from Otanapishtim. Gilgamesh travels through the forests and seas to visit Otanapishtim and meets him on an island in the middle of the sea; Otanapishtim narrates to Gilgamesh what happened to him in the storm.
According to the Torah, the sons of Noah who came out of the ark were Sam, Ham, and Japheth. 1 Noah lived three hundred and fifty years after the flood and lived nine hundred and fifty years throughout his life.

How on earth can you actually believe that someone lived to be 950 years old?

Even today with modern medicine, all sorts of life saving medical care, and a lifestyle for many in the more privileged parts of the world which reduces all the hardships and dangers that more primitive and more impoverished people suffer, even now it's rare that people live beyond 100 years.

In various posts above I think you said that from your holy books you know that Noah lived around 3000BC. But we do not have any writing actually from anywhere near that date. The earliest biblical accounts that actually exist, date to around 200AD,... and the earliest remains of manuscripts from the Koran are AFAIK 400 or 500 years newer than that …

… how on earth did anyone writing in the first few hundred years after Christianity, know what anyone called Noah did 3000 years earlier?

Clearly they would have no other source except generations of repeated tales of the fantastic and the supernatural, such as claiming all sorts of people lived to be 900 years old, or that all sorts miracles happened, or that someone built a boat that withstood floods that covered the mountain tops. That's not remotely credible as a source of reliable evidence, is it!

Do you any have reliable independent evidence for anything that you believe from the Koran? If so, can you please produce it?

You even mentioned yourself, that thousands of years before the Koran was even first written, there were numerous ancient religious societies all over the world that claimed biblical-type Flood Myths … that is – mythical stories of how their gods sent floods to punish people for their unfaithful disbelief. In which case those would constitute quite obvious earlier sources from which the OT bible and later the Koran were almost certainly just copying tales of far more ancient ancient mythical stories.

And lastly; when you mentioned Robert Ballard, you did not tell us where he published his claims of finding an ancient shoreline under a deep ocean. So again; where is the evidence to support what Ballard believes? … can you give us the reference to a genuine science journal where he published his claims?