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Cancel culture IRL

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lobosrul5 said:
Even if she is right and the US is a "heteropatriarchal" society, her comment is ugly, wrong, and demeaning. How many women and people of color were killed on 911? Does she think the Taliban/Al Qaeda doesn't want an even more "heteropatriarchal" society???

I have no issue whatsoever if she's "canceled". So be it.
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Seems to me that you're okay with people being canceled when they say stuff you find offensive and otherwise not.

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d4m10n said:
So what? Loads of scholarly ideas can be seen as ugly, wrong, and demeaning. A robust marketplace of ideas requires that they be allowed even when randos are offended on the internet.
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Allowed? As in legally and without government censor, sure, I'm 100% with you. Allowed as in everyone who is affiliated with her must continue their affiliation? Nope.
 
The Atheist said:
Let's cancel a company for "cultural appropriation"!

They have trousers that look like you're showing your boxers, which is apparently racist if you're not black.

I'll be showing my kid later, because he's not black and has done it since he was 11. (now 30)

The big point to me in all this is where the story came from - TikTok.

Srsly? Is this where we are in 2021 - that some clown records a TikTok, which an opportunist seizes on for publicity, and people take it as something real?

Holy crap, the Apocalypse can't come soon enough.
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As life-long, die-hard atheist, just let me say... A lot of these people need some jesus in their lives.
 
Elaedith said:
Their response was correct, but I am not entirely confident they would use it consistently with points of view that are currently much less popular with their primary demographic.
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Thankfully, tenure and free expression still matter at some schools. (I'm not sure if she is tenured, but respect for disparate views is along the same lines. It is a principle of academia that is under fire, no doubt. )

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phiwum said:
Seems to me that you're okay with people being canceled when they say stuff you find offensive and otherwise not.

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No. I'm OK with people being canceled by whomever finds their speech offensive so long as its not a government entity. If you find someone's speech reprehensible your free to say so and your free to make it known you won't do business with their employer, that's freedom of speech. The employer is free to terminate their employment, that's freedom of association. Whether I would maintain an association with her is irrelevant. This idea that anyone can say anything, suffer no consequences, and everyone must shrug their shoulders and carry on is quite frankly ludicrous and has probably never existed at any point anywhere in the world. I simultaneously hold the viewpoint that many times the calls to cancel someone is well below the threshold of reasonability... but I'm not the one to draw the line.

Her being an employee of what I think is a publicly funded university does complicate matters as far as her employment goes.
 
lobosrul5 said:
Allowed as in everyone who is affiliated with her must continue their affiliation? Nope.
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If scholars lose their teaching position for sharing specific offensive ideas, then publishing those ideas is effectively disallowed in scholarly circles.
 
d4m10n said:
If scholars lose their teaching position for sharing specific offensive ideas, then publishing those ideas is effectively disallowed in scholarly circles.
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As I said one post up (but not in my reply to you), if she's at a publicly funded university then that does complicate matters, since that makes her employed by the government. And if she's tenured then shes not an at-will employee.
 
phiwum said:
Thankfully, tenure and free expression still matter at some schools. (I'm not sure if she is tenured, but respect for disparate views is along the same lines. It is a principle of academia that is under fire, no doubt. )

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Ok, so

An Astrophysicist with tenure can come out in support of Flat Earth?

A Virologist with tenure can make public statements in support of anti-vaccination?

A Geologist with tenure can openly support Young Earth Creationism and promulgate the bat-**** loony Noah's Flood Geology theories?

A Political Scientist with tenure can espouse support for fascism and extol the virtues of the Holocaust?

And all of the above can be done without facing any consequences from the University at which they had tenure? I promise you, even as just a High School teacher, if I had come out with any of that stuff, even back in the 1990's, I would have been given the DCM.
 
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The Atheist said:
Let's cancel a company for "cultural appropriation"!

They have trousers that look like you're showing your boxers, which is apparently racist if you're not black.

I'll be showing my kid later, because he's not black and has done it since he was 11. (now 30)

The big point to me in all this is where the story came from - TikTok.

Srsly? Is this where we are in 2021 - that some clown records a TikTok, which an opportunist seizes on for publicity, and people take it as something real?

Holy crap, the Apocalypse can't come soon enough.
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This isn't racist, but is still cultural appropriation. That underwear is plaid. This is clearly appropriation of Scottish culture!! :p
 
lobosrul5 said:
No. I'm OK with people being canceled by whomever finds their speech offensive so long as its not a government entity. If you find someone's speech reprehensible your free to say so and your free to make it known you won't do business with their employer, that's freedom of speech. The employer is free to terminate their employment, that's freedom of association. Whether I would maintain an association with her is irrelevant. This idea that anyone can say anything, suffer no consequences, and everyone must shrug their shoulders and carry on is quite frankly ludicrous and has probably never existed at any point anywhere in the world. I simultaneously hold the viewpoint that many times the calls to cancel someone is well below the threshold of reasonability... but I'm not the one to draw the line.

Her being an employee of what I think is a publicly funded university does complicate matters as far as her employment goes.
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I think that online shaming can be dangerous, with the retribution much greater than the offense.

I also think universities (even private ones like Syracuse) have an obligation to stand up for free expression of ideas, even quite onerous ones.

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d4m10n said:
If scholars lose their teaching position for sharing specific offensive ideas, then publishing those ideas is effectively disallowed in scholarly circles.
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Again. Good!

Why is there any need to share all offensive ideas? The world would be a lot better off without racism, sexism, bigotry and persecution of minorities.
 
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smartcooky said:
Why is there any need to share all offensive ideas?
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Ask any atheist in the U.S. why offensive ideas ought to be protected speech.

(Come to think of it, ask anyone with unpopular ideas which happen to be true.)
 
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d4m10n said:
Ask any atheist in the U.S. why offensive ideas ought to be protected speech.
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You missed a word!

And (as usual) you snipped out the second part; the part you couldn't answer - the part that gave the first part, context.

d4m10n said:
(Come to think of it, ask anyone with unpopular ideas...)
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Oh, moving the goalposts now are we... subtly changing "offensive" to "unpopular".

d4m10n said:
...ideas which happen to be true.)
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Oh, its true that racism, sexism, bigotry and persecution of minorities are good things? Really? Is that what you believe?

(see what happens when you deliberately snip out context in order to create a strawman?)
 
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smartcooky said:
You missed a word!

And (as usual) you snipped out the second part; the part you couldn't answer - the part that gave the first part, context.
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The thing is, we just might not agree on which ideas the works is better off without.

Worse than that. In practice, popular opinion will decide which ideas we're better off without. In the past, popular opinion held that atheism, miscegenation and various human rights were offensive enough we could do without them. It may be that you agree with popular opinion today, but what about tomorrow?

I reckon academic freedom is too important to subject it to the whims of political correctness. The problem isn't that academia is teeming with racists. The problem is that a careful academic will either restrict himself to inoffensive comments or avoid such touch subjects altogether. And maybe there's no promise that truth is inoffensive. At least, we shouldn't assume so.

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phiwum said:
The thing is, we just might not agree on which ideas the works is better off without.

Worse than that. In practice, popular opinion will decide which ideas we're better off without. In the past, popular opinion held that atheism, miscegenation and various human rights were offensive enough we could do without them. It may be that you agree with popular opinion today, but what about tomorrow?

I reckon academic freedom is too important to subject it to the whims of political correctness. The problem isn't that academia is teeming with racists. The problem is that a careful academic will either restrict himself to inoffensive comments or avoid such touch subjects altogether. And maybe there's no promise that truth is inoffensive. At least, we shouldn't assume so.

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But at least we can decide that some ideas are so offensive that people who promote them ought to be cancelled/smacked down.

Sixteen European countries and Israel have laws against Holocaust denial. Germany and Austria seem to have done that quite successfully - and the sky hasn't fallen in.
 
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