Dumbing down schools for equity

[dann]

Oh for pity's sake. I know more than a few white kids that got through school without adequate reading and writing skills.

Me too. And the ones I know are all white.

 

[Thermal]

Why bother the cashier? When I (very rarely) use cash at a supermarket, I put the extra coin, if that suits me, into the machine, the computer does the rest and gives me back the correct amount in coins.
The $2 and a penny happens so rarely that kids can't be expected to know about the custom. It's up to you to consider what you want: the 24 cents in small coins or having to deliver a long explanation about what you are trying to accomplish. Don't blame the kids because you are living in the past. Use plastic.

Already addressed, catch up before chastising. My beach town is largely cash-only. Every retail establishment I've ever seen still has a cash register. Also, some people don't want their monthly bank statements to be 70 pages long of tiny purchases, so use cash for grabbing a coffee or picking up milk.

Eta: serious question: would you be confused by the $2 and a penny? In the states, a quarter dollar coin still has use. A pocket full of pennies, nickels and dimes does not. Plus the cashier probably needs the small change to have enough to make small change for others. It actually helps both of us to do it the way I do.

 

[Darat]

I'd bet you have seen similar behavior and just didn't notice or generally take notes on odd behaviors. I do.

I live in a resort town where a staggering majority of businesses are "cash only" (buncha tax dodgers) and see this often enough where it is glaring. My kids have even commented on it.

Problem with this type of occurrence.

It was being said when I was a kid in the 1970s, so I was one of these kids who weren't apparently able to handle change as adroitly as my elders. So when were these skills taught and cultivated and were a positive skill to have? Well it has to be before we had widespread "electronic" tills (now terminals) i.e mid 1970s onwards, in other words never in my adult lifetime.

It certainly wasn't taught when I was in school in the 70s (how to "make change" in such a way). And it wasn't in my grandmother's education in the 1910s or my mother's in the 1940s (in the family we've talked about this in the past). This was a skill you learnt via experience, a shop worker who worked the tills would be an expert because of their experience, the rest of us merely picked up bits and pieces, to expect kids to be as good as an adult with decades of experience in making change seems to be rather harsh.

When did an education system teach these skills in making change? I suspect never if we can't find it in different education systems spread over a period of 60 years and more.

It says absolutely nothing about the education system "kids today" are put through.

 

[Thermal]

Problem with this type of occurrence.

It was being said when I was a kid in the 1970s, so I was one of these kids who weren't apparently able to handle change as adroitly as my elders. So when were these skills taught and cultivated and were a positive skill to have? Well it has to be before we had widespread "electronic" tills (now terminals) i.e mid 1970s onwards, in other words never in my adult lifetime.

It certainly wasn't taught when I was in school in the 70s (how to "make change" in such a way). And it wasn't in my grandmother's education in the 1910s or my mother's in the 1940s (in the family we've talked about this in the past). This was a skill you learnt via experience, a shop worker who worked the tills would be an expert because of their experience, the rest of us merely picked up bits and pieces, to expect kids to be as good as an adult with decades of experience in making change seems to be rather harsh.

What makes it harsh? As I said, more than once, and even in the post you are referring to, I live in a largely cash-only beach town. These local kids (late teens and young adults, really) have been using coins pretty much exactly as often as you and I did.

And we are not talking about some arcane skill; it's child level math and a little tiny bit of flexible thinking.

When did an education system teach these skills in making change? I suspect never if we can't find it in different education systems spread over a period of 60 years and more.

It says absolutely nothing about the education system "kids today" are put through.

You make my point for me. I led off with this saying it was "semi related". Not even strictly related, just 'semi' so. It's an odd rigidity of thinking I am noticing, more so than this vaunted coin-counting Olympic level skillset you seem to take it as.

Why it is semi-related is that I suspect our educational system has become more ridgid and standardized, leaving kids thinking in a binary way.

 

[HoverBoarder]

First link is about marketing and the conclusions drawn about why are nothing more than speculation.

Second link which obviously has a right-wing bias buried this paragraph below the fold:The issue with the tests was that teachers ended up teaching to the test instead of teaching the subjects overall.

That bill is about standardized tests, not about dumbing down any curriculum.


There is an actual issue and the OP and links don't address it. That is the problem of teachers passing kids who shouldn't pass. That has been a problem for decades. What should be happening is kids getting extra work and help when they aren't passing the classes. Standardized tests are not solving the problem.


And by the way, what's with the BS racism that somehow the standardized tests were a racial issue? I don't see anything supporting that assertion in either link.

Overall I am glad that we agree this is an issue. Let me provide some more background on my main assertion.

The discussion about reading level being an indication of systemic racism was based off of a Washington Post article about a 2019 NAEP study on reading and other achievement levels

NAEP is known as the “nation’s report card,” the largest nationally representative and continuing assessment of U.S. students in various subjects.

The percentage of each group’s achievement levels was reported as advanced, proficient, basic and below basic, or very good, good, good enough and worrying. The national results in eighth-grade reading were: 4 percent at advanced, 29 percent at proficient, 39 percent at basic and 28 percent at below basic. One-third above average, nearly one-third below average.

This looks something like a bell curve — a normal distribution, what one would expect from many studies of large samples.

But reading ability is not something like height, weight or breakfast cereal preferences. It’s a vital skill, essential for education and adult life. Imagine if a pharmacy filled orders for important medications in such a way that nearly a third of the prescriptions were incorrect. That would not be tolerated. Yet we tolerate the education equivalent.

That is the outcome for the entire public school population. NAEP did not stop there. It then analyzed the data in a number of different ways, one of which was by race/ethnicity. Twelve percent of Asian/Pacific Islander students were at the advanced level, 42 percent were at proficient, 31 percent were at basic and 15 percent were at below basic; it’s something like a bell curve skewed a bit to the right.

Achievement outcomes for White non-Hispanic students (whom NAEP calls “White”) were something like a bell curve skewed to the left: 5 percent at advanced, 36 percent at proficient, 39 percent at basic and 19 percent below basic.

Outcomes for Hispanic students were heavily skewed to the left: 1 percent at advanced, 20 percent at proficient, 40 percent at basic and 38 percent at below basic.

Outcomes for Black students were even more heavily skewed to the left: 1 percent at advanced, 14 percent at proficient, 39 percent at basic and 47 percent — nearly half — at below basic.

Overall I agree with the premise of the article. The fact that there are these serious achievement gaps, and people think the education system is working fine, and have been taking efforts to make these gaps worse is wrong.

These are serious problems that should be addressed. I feel that the actions to commit less effort to solving these problems, and effectively place in policies that will increase this gap seems seriously unjust and wrong to me.

 

[Gord_in_Toronto]

They way schools are funded in the USA guarantees terrible education. Poor, locally-funded school boards can't afford to do it right.

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/09/07/magazine/rural-public-education.html

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

Is there such a thing as a 25 cent coin? If there isn't, I can see why the sales staff would be perplexed.

Reminds me I forgot to mention how many minimart counters have a penny dish: take a penny leave a penny.

I suppose these cashiers never asked what it was for.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

I'd bet you have seen similar behavior and just didn't notice or generally take notes on odd behaviors. I do.

I live in a resort town where a staggering majority of businesses are "cash only" (buncha tax dodgers) and see this often enough where it is glaring. My kids have even commented on it.

Post a study or something more relevant that cynical 'kids these days' anecdotes.

Tell me how is it no one gave these cashiers extra change to make the return change come out with more even coinage/dollars until you came along? Does that not seem the least bit odd to you?

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

Problem with this type of occurrence.

It was being said when I was a kid in the 1970s, so I was one of these kids who weren't apparently able to handle change as adroitly as my elders. So when were these skills taught and cultivated and were a positive skill to have? Well it has to be before we had widespread "electronic" tills (now terminals) i.e mid 1970s onwards, in other words never in my adult lifetime.

It certainly wasn't taught when I was in school in the 70s (how to "make change" in such a way). And it wasn't in my grandmother's education in the 1910s or my mother's in the 1940s (in the family we've talked about this in the past). This was a skill you learnt via experience, a shop worker who worked the tills would be an expert because of their experience, the rest of us merely picked up bits and pieces, to expect kids to be as good as an adult with decades of experience in making change seems to be rather harsh.

When did an education system teach these skills in making change? I suspect never if we can't find it in different education systems spread over a period of 60 years and more.

It says absolutely nothing about the education system "kids today" are put through.

I'm telling you, kids these days.

I get it some new cashiers and probably even more kids who are not cashiers don't know how to make change. But it's nonsense that once one has been on the job for more than a week one would not learn what to do with extra coins.

I don't believe the vast majority of 'kids these days cashiers' can't understand a simple concept.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

Overall I am glad that we agree this is an issue. Let me provide some more background on my main assertion.

I don't agree with your racist OP. Don't try to make it sound like I do.

The discussion about reading level being an indication of systemic racism was based off of a Washington Post article about a 2019 NAEP study on reading and other achievement levels

Is that link in your OP? Does that one article confirm your bias? Look at the title of your thread. You claimed getting rid of standardized tests somehow was an effort to dumb down school curricula so black kids could pass.

Your links didn't support any such assertion nor does trying to discuss a very complex topic in some oversimplified racist way. I'm not going there.

Your thread is a fail.

 

[psionl0]

Some states including California and Oregon have decided that the best way to address racial inequities in graduation rates and grade levels is to dumb down curriculum and standards.

The motivation might be racist but there is a more fundamental reason why education is being dumbed down. No jobs.

Many decades ago, a child could leave school and walk straight into an entry level job. However, those jobs have been gradually decreasing until we have been forced to choose between having hordes of kids roaming the streets all day or forcing them to remain in school longer.

Since the latter is the only real option, we have to dumb down the system so that they can't drop out. Ditto for colleges. We have to lower the entry standards so that the high school graduates can still get in.

 

[HoverBoarder]

I don't agree with your racist OP. Don't try to make it sound like I do.

Is that link in your OP? Does that one article confirm your bias? Look at the title of your thread. You claimed getting rid of standardized tests somehow was an effort to dumb down school curricula so black kids could pass.

Your links didn't support any such assertion nor does trying to discuss a very complex topic in some oversimplified racist way. I'm not going there.

Your thread is a fail.

The point of this thread is to oppose measures that increase the levels of systemic racism and achievement gaps in schools.

There is nothing really controversial about the facts that show the gaps in educational proficiency. The fact that those gaps statistically will more likely lead to negative issues, and reduces chances at financial mobility for the rest of the affected students lives, is also not controversial. If we all agree that those achievement gaps are an issue in schools, then it is really not a stretch to say that making policies that reduces pressure to fix those gaps will exacerbate those problems.

If we are being honest, the only thing that you have had a problem with is that the ones instituting these systemically racist policies are Democrats.

If you are only interested in making progress towards racial justice if you or your party can get credit for it, than I think it is time to reassess your priorities. Sometimes, pointing out a mistake in your own parties actions is far more important than feeling self righteous about our flawless actions.

 

[dann]

Eta: serious question: would you be confused by the $2 and a penny?

I wouldn't, but I know about an awful lot of things that confuse me and don't confuse the kids working as cashiers.

In the states, a quarter dollar coin still has use. A pocket full of pennies, nickels and dimes does not. Plus the cashier probably needs the small change to have enough to make small change for others. It actually helps both of us to do it the way I do.

At my local supermarket, I can put all those coins into the machine next to the cashier, which then counts and subtracts them from the total amount I have to pay. That machine confused me the first time I saw it and had no idea what it was. Now it helps both of us!
(A very long time ago, I decided that I would not become the kind of old guy I occasionally had to deal with when I was young! You know, the kind who complained about young people back then no longer having the skills that had become obsolete since they were young.)

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

The motivation might be racist but there is a more fundamental reason why education is being dumbed down. No jobs....

Where is the evidence of anything being dumbed down? It certainly isn't included in the OP.

What we are seeing is a backlash to standardized testing. There are many opinions about those tests. But eliminating them doesn't say anything about dumbing anything down. If teachers mostly teach to the test, what are they trading for that?

Address the problems of teachers passing kids that shouldn't be passed. Maybe the standardized tests were addressing that. Maybe they weren't. In order to find out we need a lot more data than there is in this discussion.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

The point of this thread is to oppose measures that increase the levels of systemic racism and achievement gaps in schools.

There is nothing really controversial about the facts that show the gaps in educational proficiency. The fact that those gaps statistically will more likely lead to negative issues, and reduces chances at financial mobility for the rest of the affected students lives, is also not controversial. If we all agree that those achievement gaps are an issue in schools, then it is really not a stretch to say that making policies that reduces pressure to fix those gaps will exacerbate those problems.

If we are being honest, the only thing that you have had a problem with is that the ones instituting these systemically racist policies are Democrats.

If you are only interested in making progress towards racial justice if you or your party can get credit for it, than I think it is time to reassess your priorities. Sometimes, pointing out a mistake in your own parties actions is far more important than feeling self righteous about our flawless actions.

You have not made your case. Your whole spiel here is you making overly broad assumptions. You have not shown that schools are dumbing down anything let alone that it is so black kids can graduate.

 

[lionking]

Why bother the cashier? When I (very rarely) use cash at a supermarket, I put the extra coin, if that suits me, into the machine, the computer does the rest and gives me back the correct amount in coins.
The $2 and a penny happens so rarely that kids can't be expected to know about the custom. It's up to you to consider what you want: the 24 cents in small coins or having to deliver a long explanation about what you are trying to accomplish. Don't blame the kids because you are living in the past. Use plastic.

Just to understand you, are you saying basic arithmetic ability is of no importance to young people? It seems so from your “living in the past” comment.

 

[psionl0]

Where is the evidence of anything being dumbed down? It certainly isn't included in the OP.

Have you got any evidence that the educational standard is as high as ever?

Maybe you don't believe that you have to demonstrate this. If there is no absolute proof that educational standards will drop if failure is removed from the school system the I guess you are arguing that the change must be implemented no matter what.

 

[Meadmaker]

Just to understand you, are you saying basic arithmetic ability is of no importance to young people? It seems so from your “living in the past” comment.

I think the issue is that, specifically for the "change" problem, people are underestimating the role played by repetition and pattern recognition.

I think when you have made change thousands of times, hearing "and seventy-six cents" triggers a reaction based on experience rather than calculation.

For young people, they haven't done it as much, and that was true back when our dads were complaining of the same phenomenon in the days before calculators. However, it is made much worse now, becuase the kids are even less likely to deal with those issues. First, cash registers started telling people how much change to give, or even automatically dumping change for you. Then, people stopped using cash altogether, so they never even had the experience of wishing they just had a quarter instead of those six coins they got in change.

 

[Darat]

Have you got any evidence that the educational standard is as high as ever? ...snip...

Why should Skeptic Ginger provide data for something she hasn't claimed?

 

[dann]

Just to understand you, are you saying basic arithmetic ability is of no importance to young people? It seems so from your “living in the past” comment.

It is of no importance for the job function. Working as a cashier no longer requires those skills.
I have a little experience working at a cash register as far back as in the eighties when it still required that I typed in the prices. Nowadays, it requires focus but almost no thinking skills at all. This makes it even more confusing when somebody suddenly does something that you aren't used to and which requires some kind of response. The cashier becomes an appendix to the machinery, as Marx would have put it, which is mind-numbing.

And as SkepticGinger has already pointed out, this probably happens so rarely nowadays that some cashiers have never had the experience. I was surprised the first time I paid with bills + a couple of small coins in the hope of getting back a coin that might actually be useful (something akin to the quarter in Danish currency) and the cashier pointed at the coin-counting machine - which was also where the useful coin then appeared.

It was a new experience to me as I imagine it also was for the cashier being handed Thermal's coins.

ETA: Denmark got rid of anything smaller than (approximately) dimes years ago!