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The Sinking of MS Estonia: Case Re-Opened

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JayUtah said:
...but it's not a conspiracy theory.



But no actual eyewitnesses to a collision. And what happened to the "explosions?" You spend pages trying to convince that the witnesses reported that bombs were going off. Now I guess we're not talking about that anymore. Did the witnesses hear bombs? Or did they hear the ship colliding with something? 90 pages hence, can we finally please get some clarity on what exactly you're claiming?



Or as they say in my neck of the woods, "All hat and no cattle." You didn't address the key element of the rebuttal. Shortly after one o'clock the witnesses start hearing repetitive percussive noises, which would be consistent with the bow visor starting to come loose and being battered by waves. Then at 01:15, the reconstructed timeline shows the visor falling completely free. How is this inconsistent?
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No, Jay Utah, it is Jutta Rabe and Brian Braidwood who have the theory of bombs going off (Braidwood was after all a Royal Navy explosives expert and he sent his samples to three independent forensic laboratories, including one which serves the German forensic police)

It is Margus Kurm and Evertsson who have put forward the theory a submarine may have caused the huge hole in the starboard, which DOES exist.

It is 34 survivors out of 79 civilian ones who claim to have heard 'bangs' and/or a collision.

I am only the messenger. The wreck has been revisited with sovereign nations' approval and there will be another unofficial expedition on 18 September 2021 on behalf of the victims' relatives and a media group newspaper.
 
Vixen said:
No, Jay Utah, it is Jutta Rabe and Brian Braidwood who have the theory of bombs going off (Braidwood was after all a Royal Navy explosives expert and he sent his samples to three independent forensic laboratories, including one which serves the German forensic police)
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Asked and answered.

It is Margus Kurm and Evertsson who have put forward the theory a submarine may have caused the huge hole in the starboard, which DOES exist.
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Asked and answered.

It is 34 survivors out of 79 civilian ones who claim to have heard 'bangs' and/or a collision.
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Asked and answered.

You've decided simply to restart the thread and make the same points we've spent pages debating and debunking. So I guess we have to endure another 90 pages of deflection and evasion. Either you're not interested in discussing these points, in which case why bring them up at a discussion forum? Or you're not capable of discussing them with people who might know more about them than you do. You call yourself merely a messenger, yet you seem to have appointed yourself an advocate for the survivors. Can you please, at last, decide what role you're going to play in this discussion?
 
JayUtah said:
Reminds me of the U.K. conspiracy theorist whose name escapes me, who claimed the astronauts never went to the Moon -- but while they were there they discovered evidence of alien visitation.
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Did they find the skull of John the Baptist as a child while they were there, too?
 
Vixen said:
No, Jay Utah, it is Jutta Rabe and Brian Braidwood who have the theory of bombs going off (Braidwood was after all a Royal Navy explosives expert and he sent his samples to three independent forensic laboratories, including one which serves the German forensic police)

It is Margus Kurm and Evertsson who have put forward the theory a submarine may have caused the huge hole in the starboard, which DOES exist.

It is 34 survivors out of 79 civilian ones who claim to have heard 'bangs' and/or a collision.

I am only the messenger. The wreck has been revisited with sovereign nations' approval and there will be another unofficial expedition on 18 September 2021 on behalf of the victims' relatives and a media group newspaper.
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You are being unfair to yourself. Those authors have put forth two competing theories. Your genius is claiming they're both true.

That's more creative than a messenger!

Sent from my SM-G991U using Tapatalk
 
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Wait, I guess I'm confused. Your last story is that a minisub planted a mine in the middle of a terrible storm, right?

Where's the collision now? Is that hole in the "bulkhead hull" from a collision or an additional explosion just to be sure?

Oh. Right. You said that maybe it accidentally collided while trying to plant the mine, so it's both.

We already have Iraqis in the story, right? Why not go with a terrorist suicide bomber minisub?

Sent from my SM-G991U using Tapatalk
 
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Vixen said:
A good detective puts himself in the mind of the criminal. Think about it, phiwum. Imagine if you were part of the Russian mafia or even a speznaz as of the era of FSU and not only were you resentful of perceived hostile foreign powers (Sweden, Estonia, the USA) smuggling out the state secrets of your beloved fatherland and you become aware that this is being done on a public passenger ferry; you have fired off at least two warnings to the western states concerned but it is still going on. So, you have the military and maritime knowhow to take action to put a stop to it. The fact of a thousand members of public and crew are on board is - you reason - something the western powers should have thought about, not your problem - so you move heaven and earth to stop the latest smuggling which you have been tipped off about. So you make darn sure that ship goes nowhere. You wait until it gets into international waters and then on the stroke of Swedish midnight - (Sweden, do you get the message?) - a series of three explosions go off at the bow side locks - did the one at the atlantic lock at the bottom fail? - but you don't know that the car ramp will also come off, do you? So you attach a mine via a mini submarine to the side or accidentally crash the submarine you had tracking the vessel. Job done.
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Cool story bro.

You said it was probably a British or Swedish submarine escorting the Estonia which accidentally crashed into it causing the sinking.

Are you going back on that story?
 
Vixen said:
A good detective puts himself in the mind of the criminal.
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A good detective doesn't beg the question. He doesn't start trying to understand the criminal until he's sure a crime has been committed.

A *bad* detective, imagines every possible crime and every possible criminal, assume one of them must be the one, and tries to figure out which of his many imaginary narratives is the most plausible. He's basically playing with dolls in a dollhouse and saying he's detected something every time he creates a scene he likes. "Here's Barbie hosting a tea party. That could happen, right? Detection!"

You're playing Bad Detective, Vixen.
 
Vixen said:
A good detective puts himself in the mind of the criminal.
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No.

A good detective works backward from the crime scene/accident scene. In this case you have the ship on the sea floor missing its hood. The bolts and hinges which held it in place show metal fatigue and failure from containing the weight of the hood after the bow lock broke.

Everything else is secondary.
 
They say a good driver sometimes misses their turn, but a bad driver never misses their turn. I wonder if the same could be said about detectives. I wouldn't be surprised if a good detective sometimes misses a crime because there's just not enough evidence to make it not look like an accident. Whereas a bad detective will look at an accident, wonder if it's really a well concealed crime, and burn the midnight oil trying to find a hypothetical criminal.
 
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JayUtah said:
Why is the messenger so personally invested in the story? Which one of the contradictory stories do you believe?
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It's pretty local to me. I believe the survivors because they had no motive to embellish their stories as of the time they were rescued and having almost immediately being interviewed without seeing the news or being influenced by the media.
 
phiwum said:
Wait, I guess I'm confused. Your last story is that a minisub planted a mine in the middle of a terrible storm, right?

Where's the collision now? Is that hole in the "bulkhead hull" from a collision or an additional explosion just to be sure?

Oh. Right. You said that maybe it accidentally collided while trying to plant the mine, so it's both.

We already have Iraqis in the story, right? Why not go with a terrorist suicide bomber minisub?

Sent from my SM-G991U using Tapatalk
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There are many things that can feel like a collision. I already mentioned the earth tremor I felt in Wales. I doubt 34 passenger survivors would have equated a slamming [screen]door or neighbours banging a hammer with the sensation of having been collided with. No Iraqis in the mix although there is one theory it was a bunch of Libyans paid to do it.
 
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